Remark History - TV Tropes

[020] 92.209.183.232

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard and outcast feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did is showing empathy, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and afterwards drops his arrogant lordling behavior. He learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminded him how little he actually knows. Jon had to learn to be more humble and show empathy towards others and all these people shaped him into a capable leader, who in the end was unfortunately almost always misunderstood.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved you in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must wonder if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon possibly being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should like, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in A Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages (consciously), though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[019] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 11:36:59 AM

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard and outcast feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did is showing empathy, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and afterwards drops his arrogant lordling behavior. He learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminded him how little he actually knows. Jon had to learn to be more humble and show empathy towards others and all these people shaped him into a capable leader, who in the end was unfortunately almost always misunderstood.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved you in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must wonder if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon possibly being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should like, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in A Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[018] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 11:34:41 AM

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard and outcast feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did is showing empathy, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and afterwards drops his arrogant lordling behavior. He learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminded him how little he actually knows. Jon had to learn to be more humble and show empathy towards others and all these people shaped him into a capable leader, who in the end was almost always misunderstood.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved you in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must wonder if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon possibly being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should like, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in A Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[017] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 11:29:53 AM

Changed line(s) 25 from:

n

Another example, Sansa doesn\'t look at Lollys Stokeworth the way others look at her. She treats Lollys with respect. If you want to counter that, yes, I\'m aware Sansa thinks she\'s dull and placid, but that\'s nothing compared to the other people who call her things like lackwit, dimwit, diminish her mental capacity and insult her looks. There are scenes with Lollys that show clearly how nice Sansa actually is, as unlike the rest of Lollys\' family who treats her harshly, Sansa talks gently and doesn\'t make any bad comment about her mental capacity, instead thinking she is sick since she is pregnant.

to:

Another example, Sansa doesn\\\'t look at Lollys Stokeworth the way others look at her. She treats Lollys with respect. If you want to counter that, yes, I\\\'m aware Sansa thinks she\\\'s dull and placid, but that\\\'s nothing compared to the other people who call her things like lackwit, dimwit, diminish her mental capacity and insult her looks. There are scenes with Lollys that show clearly how nice Sansa actually is, as unlike the rest of Lollys\\\' family who treats her harshly even though the girl is clearly traumatized, Sansa talks gently to her and doesn\\\'t make any bad comment about her mental capacity, instead thinking she is sick since she is pregnant.

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and afterwards drops his arrogant lordling behavior. He learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminded him how little he actually knows. Jon had to learn to be more humble and show empathy towards others and all these people shaped him into a capable leader, who in the end was almost always misunderstood.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved you in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must wonder if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon possibly being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should like, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in A Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[016] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 10:12:15 AM

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and afterwards drops his arrogant lordling behavior. He learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminded him how little he actually knows. Jon had to learn to be more humble and show empathy towards others and all these people shaped him into a capable leader, who in the end was almost always misunderstood.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved you in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must wonder if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon possibly being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should like, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in A Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[015] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 10:11:15 AM

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and afterwards drops his arrogant lordling behavior. He learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminded him how little he actually knows. Jon had to learn to be more humble and show empathy towards others and all these people shaped him into a capable leader, who in the end was almost always misunderstood.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved you in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must wonder if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should like, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in A Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[014] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 10:09:55 AM

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and afterwards drops his arrogant lordling behavior. He learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminded him how little he actually knows. Jon had to learn to be more humble and show empathy towards others and all these people shaped him into a capable leader, who in the end was almost always misunderstood.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved you in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must ask myself if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should like, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in A Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[013] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 10:08:43 AM

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion (maybe the comparison between Robert and Joffrey) that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and drops his arrogant lordling behavior and he learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminds him how little he actually knows. Jon had to learn to be more humble and show empathy towards others and all these people shaped him into a capable leader, who in the end was almost always misunderstood.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved you in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must ask myself if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should like, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in A Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[012] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 10:04:56 AM

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and drops his arrogant lordling behavior and he learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminds him how little he actually knows. Jon had to learn to be more humble and show empathy towards others and all these people shaped him into a capable leader, who in the end was almost always misunderstood.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved you in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must ask myself if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should like, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in A Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[011] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 09:54:33 AM

Changed line(s) 9 from:

n

First of all, let\'s be honest: Tyrion \'\'is\'\' ugly. This is not just an opinion, it\'s a fact and Sansa isn\'t the first POV character who pointed that out. Second, you\'re ignoring the context. She is forced to marry him at that moment, for God\'s sake. She does not find him attractive at all and she has every right to think that, as she is supposed to share his bed at the end of the day. This hardly counters her being a nice girl.

to:

First of all, let\\\'s be honest: Tyrion \\\'\\\'is\\\'\\\' ugly for human standards. This is not just an opinion, it\\\'s a fact he admits himself and Sansa isn\\\'t the first POV character who pointed that out, either. Second, you\\\'re ignoring the context. She is forced to marry him at that moment, for God\\\'s sake. She does not find him attractive at all and she has every right to think that, as she is supposed to share his bed at the end of the day. This hardly counters her being a nice girl.

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and drops his arrogant lordling behavior and he learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminds him how little he actually knows. Jon had to learn to be more humble and show empathy towards others and all these people shaped him into a capable leader, who in the end was almost always misunderstood.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must ask myself if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should like, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in A Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[010] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 09:44:26 AM

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and drops his arrogant lordling behavior and he learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminds him how little he actually knows. Jon had to learn to be more humble and show empathy towards others and all these people shaped him into a capable leader, who in the end was almost always misunderstood.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must ask myself if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should like, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in A Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[009] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 09:41:42 AM

Changed line(s) 23 from:

n

As it was described, her being a NiceGirl starts to be more clearly once her father\'s head was taken off. Besides the other occurences, that were listed there are plenty of scenes during her imprisonment where she treats others well. When Myrcelly is leaving King\'s Landing, Sansa tries to defend Tommen crying, when Joffrey orders him to stop, for instance. She takes care of Lancel, her enemy and she is very worried about Margaery since she became Joffrey\'s new betrothed. While we\'re at it, Sansa even almost shows pity towards Marillion and must actively stop herself from doing that, since he almost raped her and helped Lysa in almost killing her.

to:

As it was described, her being a NiceGirl starts to be more clearly once her father\\\'s head was taken off. Besides the other occurences that were listed, there are plenty of scenes during her imprisonment where she treats others well. When Myrcella is leaving King\\\'s Landing, Sansa tries to defend Tommen crying, when Joffrey orders him to stop, for instance. She takes care of Lancel, her enemy, and she is very worried about Margaery since she became Joffrey\\\'s new betrothed. While we\\\'re at it, Sansa even almost shows pity towards Marillion and must actively stop herself from doing that, since he almost raped her and helped Lysa in almost killing her.

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and drops his arrogant lordling behavior and he learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminds him how little he actually knows.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must ask myself if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should like, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in A Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[008] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 09:39:32 AM

Changed line(s) 19 from:

n

Again, ignoring context. The Lords Declarant are threatening the Eyrie and Littlefinger with hosts and try to starve them out. Just like I\'m a pacifist, but that doesn\'t automatically make me not beat someone to death if this other person threatens to kill me.

to:

Again, ignoring context. The Lords Declarant are threatening the Eyrie and Littlefinger with hosts and try to starve them out. I\\\'m a pacifist, but that doesn\\\'t automatically make me not beat someone to death if this other person threatens to kill me.

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and drops his arrogant lordling behavior and he learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminds him how little he actually knows.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must ask myself if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should like, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in A Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[007] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 09:36:13 AM

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and drops his arrogant lordling behavior and he learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminds him how little he actually knows.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must ask myself if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should like, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in A Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[006] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 09:34:15 AM

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and drops his arrogant lordling behavior and he learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminds him how little he actually knows.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must ask myself if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left (14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[005] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 09:33:36 AM

Changed line(s) 35 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and drops his arrogant lordling behavior and he learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminds him how little he actually knows.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to Player reread project, I must ask myself if you even read a single page because it\\\'s not just fan speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left(14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[004] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 09:31:41 AM

Changed line(s) 19 from:

n

Again, ignoring context. The Lords Declarant are threatening the Eyrie and Littlefinger with hosts and try to starve them out. Just because I\'m a pacifist doesn\'t automatically make me not beat someone to death if this other person threatens to kill me. Or I can actually say this is not truly Sansa anymore, but Alayne, though this does seem a bit cheap imo.

to:

Again, ignoring context. The Lords Declarant are threatening the Eyrie and Littlefinger with hosts and try to starve them out. Just like I\\\'m a pacifist, but that doesn\\\'t automatically make me not beat someone to death if this other person threatens to kill me.

Changed line(s) 20 from:

to:

Or I can actually say this is not truly Sansa anymore, but Alayne, though this does seem a bit cheap imo.

[003] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 09:30:26 AM

Changed line(s) 15 from:

n

Sansa is about to get thrown into another forced marriage. She does comfort Robert and shows concern for him while she still thinks of herself as Sansa Stark. When she lied, she did so she would not harm him (and conveniently not die admittedly), or at least that is what she thinks...

to:

Sansa is about to get thrown into another forced marriage. She does comfort Robert and shows concern for him. When she lied, she did so, so she would not harm him (and conveniently not die admittedly), or at least that is what she\\\'s telling herself...

Changed line(s) 33 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and drops his arrogant lordling behavior and he learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminds him how little he actually knows.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to player reread project, I must ask myself if you even read one page because it\\\'s not just fan interpretation and speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left(14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

[002] 92.209.183.232

29th Apr '14 at 09:28:14 AM

Changed line(s) 33 from:

n

Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and drops his arrogant lordling behavior and he learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminds him how little he actually knows.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped by her experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and in response starts to lose her emotions and her ability to feel for and with others (though this might happen with Alayne, too).

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to player reread project, I must ask myself if you even read one page because it\\\'s not just fan interpretation and speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left(14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

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29th Apr '14 at 09:23:29 AM

Changed line(s) 33 from:

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Now here\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \

to:

Now here\\\'s the thing. You, and whoever wrote the other description to avert Sansa\\\'s lack of empathy, are mixing up things. Except for the part where she is admitting a lack of feeling, there is no example in your suggestion that says \\\"she lacks empathy\\\". Empathy and sympathy are \\\'\\\'\\\'not\\\'\\\'\\\' the same thing.

I might as well use other characters to elaborate. What Tyrion does for Jon and Bran is showing empathy, as he knows what it feels like to be socially or physically limited. He knows how a bastard feels like and offers advice and help for both of them. What Maester Aemon did, when he talked to Jon in Game of Thrones is showing empathy as no one else knew better what it means when your vows are tested, when you have to decide between your love (and/or family) and your duty. Jon learns to be empathetic towards his fellow brothers when Donal Noye has a talk with Jon and drops his arrogant lordling behavior and he learns to be empathetic towards the free folk after riding with them and spending time with Ygritte, who constantly reminds him how little he actually knows.

Sansa can show sympathy a lot, but outstanding is her empathy which is shaped with what she experiences in King\\\'s Landing. A notable contrast to Arya, who is also traumatized by what she sees during her journey and starts to lose her emotion and her ability to feel for and with others.

Sansa knows how it feels like to part with someone you care about, to be scared (to death), to see someone you loved, and loved in return, die in front of you, she has an idea of what a horrible experience rape must be and was a prisoner who was humiliated and violated by Joffrey in front of everyone. Sansa knows what it feels like to be alone.

All of this is the reason why she can \\\'\\\'understand\\\'\\\' the other characters she feels sorry for. She feels \\\'\\\'with\\\'\\\' them. Dontos was humiliated, Tommen felt sad, Lollys was raped, maybe almost killed, and was treated harshly, Sandor was lonely, scared and hurt, so were the other women during the siege scared. She probably knew and understood how Tyrion felt, when Joffrey mistreated him, too.

\\\'\\\'Also, I don\\\'t believe we can use a fan discussion thread as evidence.\\\'\\\'

Honestly, if you are referring to me mentioning the Pawn to player reread project, I must ask myself if you even read one page because it\\\'s not just fan interpretation and speculation. There is textual evidence that is discussed, the same way you and I are discussing these tropes here by showing evidence from the books.

\\\'\\\'There is also a claim that Sansa based her Alayne Stone identity on Jon Snow. This hasn\\\'t been supported by anything in the text and seems to be more conjecture/theorizing. If I\\\'m wrong, maybe actual canon evidence where Sansa thinks/says this would be helpful. \\\'\\\'

Not everything needs to be spelled out, does it? It\\\'s not like George Martin has to point out all the foreshadowing or the references to history and Greek mythology in the books, either. We might as well remove any parts in here that hint at Jon being Lyanna and Rhaegar\\\'s child because no one in the books has said so, as of right now.

As it is mentioned, the BigBrotherWorship is very subtle so this is obviously based on how one interpretes her relationship with Jon and how Alayne is portrayed. But as I mentioned before, it\\\'s common practice when making up new identities or new people to base them on people you actually know so you won\\\'t forget what you said and later contradict with something you said. (Yes, I picked that up from someone who studied criminology actually and this is fiction, so George might not have intended that at all and I could be completely wrong.)

There are signs that can be interpreted like the way the one, who said Alayne is based on Jon, did. I do not remember details anymore besides Sansa knowing no other bastards besides Jon, Alayne being the same age Jon was when he left(14) and the fact that Alayne supposedly doesn\\\'t like dancing, something every proper lady should, including Sansa, yet the reader learns in Dance with Dragons that Jon can\\\'t dance and doesn\\\'t like to do it.

Admittedly, it\\\'s largely interpretation and there is no thought in Alayne\\\'s chapters where it says \\\"what would Jon do in this situation?\\\", so her positively looking up to Jon the way her other siblings did is hard to prove, which probably comes with the fact that the two of them don\\\'t have scenes where they interact outside of flashbacks. She \\\'\\\'does\\\'\\\' say in her last chapter that she hadn\\\'t thought of Jon for ages, though we all know Alayne/Sansa is an UnreliableNarrator and when Sansa prayed for her family, she included Jon.

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