[076]
Charsi
Current Version
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of ''AllsWellThatEndsWell'' I haven't found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can't do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn't court her, he didn't say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he'd prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn't gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. (Even then, I'd at least think:
to:
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. (Even then, I\'d at least think: \"wait, if I can\'t even talk to \'\'him\'\' honestly, how could we make a marriage work? Would repeatedly forcing a tricking him as long as we both shall live be worth the trouble?\") Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \"you may abandon me if you want\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as an honest mistake but deliberately going for QuestionableConsent. At least I can\'t imagine any situation where it would be practical to [[WastefulWishing waste a royal favor]] on a mere GrandRomanticGesture toward someone already interested. Someone not interested would be even less worth it, even if I had the death wish to willingly live under the same roof with someone I have publicly humiliated and whose career I have ruined - with an informed domestic abuser who is also a professional warrior, unless I am NighInvulnerable - just so I could have the most unwilling MealTicket I could find. (And I would be at least wary at his sudden change of heart in the end: What if it\'s just a change of tactic and he is now desperate enough to widow himself? Even if the whole country would be out for his blood for it, he is too short-tempered to take much humiliation without snapping...)
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would even a modern millionaire be thrilled to marry down, especially without love? (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) Would even an average modern soldier retire to be a HouseHusband? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would even a modern millionaire be thrilled to marry down, especially without love? (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) Would even an average modern soldier retire to be a HouseHusband? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of ''AllsWellThatEndsWell'' I haven't found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can't do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn't court her, he didn't say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he'd prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn't gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least ''stops''. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don't know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said '''she''' didn't want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn't say
to:
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. (Even then, I\'d at least think: \"wait, if I can\'t even talk to \'\'him\'\' honestly, how could we make a marriage work? Would repeatedly forcing a tricking him as long as we both shall live be worth the trouble?\") Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \"you may abandon me if you want\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as an honest mistake but deliberately going for QuestionableConsent. At least I can\'t imagine any situation where it would be practical to [[WastefulWishing waste a royal favor]] on a mere GrandRomanticGesture toward someone already interested. Someone not interested would be even less worth it, even if I had the death wish to willingly live under the same roof with someone I have publicly humiliated and whose career I have ruined - with an informed domestic abuser who is also a professional warrior, unless I am NighInvulnerable - just so I could have the most unwilling MealTicket I could find. (And I would be at least wary at his sudden change of heart in the end, even if I had some subconscious idea about StockholmSyndrome: What if it\'s just a change of tactic and he is now desperate enough to widow himself? Even if the whole country would be out for his blood for it, he is too short-tempered to take much humiliation without snapping...)
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would even a modern millionaire be thrilled to marry down, especially without love? (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) Would even an average modern soldier retire to be a HouseHusband? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would even a modern millionaire be thrilled to marry down, especially without love? (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) Would even an average modern soldier retire to be a HouseHusband? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of ''AllsWellThatEndsWell'' I haven't found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can't do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn't court her, he didn't say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he'd prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn't gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least ''stops''. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don't know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said '''she''' didn't want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn't say
to:
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \"you may abandon me if you want\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as an honest mistake but deliberately going for QuestionableConsent. At least I can\'t imagine any situation where it would be practical to [[WastefulWishing waste a royal favor]] on a mere GrandRomanticGesture toward someone already interested. Someone not interested would be even less worth it, even if I had the death wish to willingly live under the same roof with someone I have publicly humiliated and whose career I have ruined - with an informed domestic abuser who is also a professional warrior, unless I am NighInvulnerable - just so I could have the most unwilling MealTicket I could find. (And I would be at least wary at his sudden change of heart in the end, even if I had some subconscious idea about StockholmSyndrome: What if it\'s just a change of tactic and he is now desperate enough to widow himself? Even if the whole country would be out for his blood for it, he is too short-tempered to take much humiliation without snapping...)
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would even a modern millionaire be thrilled to marry down, especially without love? (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) Would even an average modern soldier retire to be a HouseHusband? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would even a modern millionaire be thrilled to marry down, especially without love? (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) Would even an average modern soldier retire to be a HouseHusband? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of ''AllsWellThatEndsWell'' I haven't found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can't do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn't court her, he didn't say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he'd prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn't gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least ''stops''. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don't know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said '''she''' didn't want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn't say
to:
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \"you may abandon me if you want\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as an honest mistake but deliberately going for QuestionableConsent. At least I can\'t imagine any situation where it would be practical to [[WastefulWishing waste a royal favor]] on a mere GrandRomanticGesture toward someone already interested. Someone not interested would be even less worth it, even if I had the death wish to willingly live under the same roof with someone I have publicly humiliated and whose career I have ruined - with an informed domestic abuser who is also a professional warrior, unless I am NighInvulnerable - just so I could have the most unwilling MealTicket I could find.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would even a modern millionaire be thrilled to marry down, especially without love? (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) Would even an average modern soldier retire to be a HouseHusband? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would even a modern millionaire be thrilled to marry down, especially without love? (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) Would even an average modern soldier retire to be a HouseHusband? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of ''AllsWellThatEndsWell'' I haven't found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can't do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn't court her, he didn't say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he'd prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn't gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least ''stops''. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don't know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said '''she''' didn't want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn't say
to:
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \"you may abandon me if you want\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as an honest mistake but deliberately going for QuestionableConsent. At least I can\'t imagine any situation where it would be practical to [[WastefulWishing waste a royal favor]] on a mere GrandRomanticGesture toward someone already interested. Someone not interested would be even less worth it, even if I had the death wish to willingly live under the same roof with someone I have publicly humiliated and whose career I have ruined - with an informed domestic abuser who is also a professional warrior, unless I am NighInvulnerable - just so I could have the most unwilling MealTicket I could find.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would even a modern millionaire be thrilled to marry down, especially without love? (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would even a modern millionaire be thrilled to marry down, especially without love? (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of ''AllsWellThatEndsWell'' I haven't found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can't do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn't court her, he didn't say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he'd prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn't gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least ''stops''. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don't know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said '''she''' didn't want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn't say
to:
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \"you may abandon me if you want\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as an honest mistake but deliberately going for QuestionableConsent. At least I can\'t imagine any situation where it would be practical to [[WastefulWishing waste a royal favor]] on a mere GrandRomanticGesture toward someone already interested. Someone not interested would be even less worth it, even if I had the death wish to willingly live under the same roof with someone I have publicly humiliated and whose career I have ruined - with an informed domestic abuser who is also a professional warrior, unless I am NighInvulnerable - just so I could have the most unwilling MealTicket I could find.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of ''AllsWellThatEndsWell'' I haven't found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can't do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn't court her, he didn't say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he'd prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn't gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least ''stops''. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don't know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said '''she''' didn't want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn't say
to:
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \"you may abandon me if you want\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as an honest mistake but deliberately going for QuestionableConsent. At least I can\'t imagine any situation where it would be practical to [[WastefulWishing waste a royal favor]] on a mere GrandRomanticGesture toward someone already interested. Someone not interested would be even less worth it, even if I had the death wish to willingly live under the same roof with someone I have publicly humiliated and whose career I have ruined just so I could have the most unwilling MealTicket I could find.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of ''AllsWellThatEndsWell'' I haven't found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can't do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn't court her, he didn't say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he'd prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn't gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least ''stops''. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don't know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said '''she''' didn't want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn't say
to:
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \"you may abandon me if you want\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as an honest mistake but deliberately going for QuestionableConsent. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of ''AllsWellThatEndsWell'' I haven't found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can't do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn't court her, he didn't say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he'd prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn't gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least ''stops''. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don't know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said '''she''' didn't want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn't say
to:
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \"you may abandon me if you want\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\'t found any about her which wasn\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \'\'owning\'\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] (Assuming it\'s not the insult of being sold and bought behind his back, wanting to MarryForLove and not being able to turn around and look at a quasi-sibling with a lover\'s eyes or having other plans for the near future than be held back with marriage and children, but the only possible objection is that her blood is not blue enough.) [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \'\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\'\' He wouldn\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \'\'QueerAsFolk\'\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \'\'\'explicitly told\'\'\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Does not jumping in joy to be someone\\\'s MealTicket, especially if you had other plans with your life, really make you a haughty SpoiledBrat? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \\\'\\\'\\\'explicitly told\\\'\\\'\\\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Does not jumping in joy to be someone\\\'s MealTicket, especially if you had other plans with your life, really make you a haughty SpoiledBrat? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \\\'\\\'\\\'explicitly told\\\'\\\'\\\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Does not jumping in joy to be someone\\\'s MealTicket, especially if you had other plans with your life, really make you a haughty SpoiledBrat? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] (hey, what is there to prove his looks and the challenge of chasing him have all the appeal? Whatever her PopularityPower, the fact remains they didn\\\'t move into \\\'\\\'her\\\'\\\' house so \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' could be the breadwinner for the poor broke FeudalOverlord.) - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \\\'\\\'\\\'explicitly told\\\'\\\'\\\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Does not jumping in joy to be someone\\\'s MealTicket, especially if you had other plans with your life, really make you a haughty SpoiledBrat? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] (hey, what is there to prove his looks and the challenge of chasing him have all the appeal? Whatever her PopularityPower, the fact remains they didn\\\'t move into \\\'\\\'her\\\'\\\' house so \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' could be the breadwinner for the poor broke FeudalOverlord.) - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the romance she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \\\'\\\'\\\'explicitly told\\\'\\\'\\\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Does not jumping in joy to be someone\\\'s MealTicket, especially if you had other plans with your life, really make you a haughty SpoiledBrat? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] (hey, what is there to prove his looks and the challenge of chasing him have all the appeal?) - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \\\'\\\'\\\'explicitly told\\\'\\\'\\\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Does not jumping in joy to be someone\\\'s MealTicket, especially if you had other plans with your life, really make you a haughty SpoiledBrat? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] (hey, what is there to prove his looks and the challenge of chasing him have all the appeal?) - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \\\'\\\'\\\'explicitly told\\\'\\\'\\\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Does not jumping in joy to be someone\\\'s MealTicket, especially if you had other plans with your life, really make you a haughty SpoiledBrat? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \\\'\\\'\\\'explicitly told\\\'\\\'\\\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Does not jumping in joy to be someone\\\'s MealTicket, especially if you had other plans with your life, really make you a haughty SpoiledBrat? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised (what he has \\\'\\\'\\\'explicitly told\\\'\\\'\\\' you should never expect from him, mind you), let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Does not jumping in joy to be someone\\\'s MealTicket, especially if you had other plans with your life, really make you a haughty SpoiledBrat? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Does not jumping in joy to be someone\\\'s MealTicket, especially if you had other plans with your life, really make you a haughty SpoiledBrat? [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] [[DoubleStandard However, his foster sister using him as a ticket into nobility is a touching act of unconditional love and self-sacrifice?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] [[DoubleStandard Much shallower than his foster sister?]] Who is using him as a ticket into nobility? Where is the proof that her love is unconditional? - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] [[DoubleStandard Much shallower than his foster sister?]] Who is using him as a ticket into nobility? Where is the proof that her love is unconditional? - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] [[DoubleStandard As opposed to his foster sister?]] Who is using him as a ticket into nobility? Where is the proof that her love is unconditional? - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] [[DoubleStandard As opposed to his foster sister?]] Who is using him as a ticket into nobility? Where is the proof that her love is unconditional? - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] [[DoubleStandard As opposed to his super deep and mature foster sister who loves his hotness and richness in spite of his oh-so-despicable personality, and wants a ticket into nobility?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] [[DoubleStandard As opposed to his super deep and mature foster sister who loves his hotness and richness in spite of his oh-so-despicable personality, and wants a ticket into nobility?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' be so obsessed with him if he were just a handsome farm boy, and not a possible ticket into the high society? [[DoubleStandard She is allowed to pine after his BlueBlood, but he is the shallowest bastard for not jumping in joy to marry a servant girl he isn\\\'t even interested in?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' be so obsessed with him if he were just a handsome farm boy, and not a possible ticket into the high society? [[DoubleStandard She is allowed to pine after his BlueBlood, but he is the shallowest bastard for not jumping in joy to marry a servant girl he isn\\\'t even interested in?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' be so obsessed with him if he were just a handsome farm boy, and not a possible ticket into the high society? - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' be so obsessed with him if he were just a handsome farm boy, and not a possible ticket into the high society? - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' be so obsessed with him if he were just a handsome farm boy, and not a possible ticket into the high society? Hell, even my modern, liberal, neither noble nor rich self wouldn\\\'t feel honored to marry a homeless foster sibling nor touched by their selfless and unconditional love for my house. No, they wouldn\\\'t be an inferior person for being less lucky, but they wouldn\\\'t be entitled to my romantic interest, nor my admiration for being good at [[FauxActionGirl inheriting their father\\\'s work]] and trying to social-climb through a spouse. How about \\\'\\\'Helena\\\'\\\' proving she isn\\\'t shallow, hmm? - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' be so obsessed with him if he were just a handsome farm boy, and not a possible ticket into the high society? Hell, even my modern, liberal, neither noble nor rich self wouldn\\\'t feel honored to marry a homeless foster sibling nor touched by their selfless and unconditional love for my house. No, they wouldn\\\'t be an inferior person for being less lucky, but they wouldn\\\'t be entitled to my romantic interest, nor my admiration for being good at [[FauxActionGirl inheriting their father\\\'s work]] and trying to social-climb through a spouse. How about \\\'\\\'Helena\\\'\\\' proving she isn\\\'t shallow, hmm? - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' be so obsessed with him if he were just a handsome farm boy, and not a possible ticket into the high society? Hell, even my modern, liberal, neither noble nor rich self wouldn\\\'t feel honored to marry a homeless foster sibling nor touched by their selfless and unconditional love for my house. How about \\\'\\\'Helena\\\'\\\' proving she isn\\\'t shallow, hmm? - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' be so obsessed with him if he were just a handsome farm boy, and not a possible ticket into the high society? Hell, even my modern, liberal, neither noble nor rich self wouldn\\\'t feel honored to marry a homeless foster sibling nor touched by their selfless and unconditional love for my house. How about \\\'\\\'Helena\\\'\\\' proving she isn\\\'t shallow, hmm? - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' be so obsessed with him if he were just a handsome farm boy, and not a possible ticket into the high society?- but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' be so obsessed with him if he were just a handsome farm boy, and not a possible ticket into the high society?- but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' be so obsessed with him if he were just a handsome farm boy, and not a possible ticket into the high society?- but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] Would \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' be so obsessed with him if he were just a handsome farm boy, and not a possible ticket into the high society?- but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted (while she easily persuaded a stranger abroad to help her BedTrick her suitor), her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe that the professional player of DirtySocialTricks, whose calculating and manipulating skills are applauded throughout the play, suddenly had no idea what she was doing by engineering a public husband-sale instead of simply confessing to him in private of writing a love letter, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted (while she easily persuaded a stranger abroad to help her BedTrick her suitor), her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted (while she easily persuaded a stranger abroad to help her BedTrick her suitor), her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; and felt guilty for making him run from his own home as a public enemy and not wronged for not getting the sex she has paid for.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted (while she easily persuaded a stranger abroad to help her BedTrick her suitor), her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted (while she easily persuaded a stranger abroad to help her BedTrick her suitor), her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; had taken the hint and tried to divorce when she saw how unwanted she was instead of creeping on him abroad and even using a baby as a pawn.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[ActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; had taken the hint and tried to divorce when she saw how unwanted she was instead of creeping on him abroad and even using a baby as a pawn.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted (while she easily persuaded a stranger abroad to help her BedTrick her suitor), her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted (while she easily persuaded a stranger abroad to help her BedTrick her suitor), her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[AnActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; had taken the hint and tried to divorce when she saw how unwanted she was instead of creeping on him abroad and even using a baby as a pawn.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\' He wouldn\\\'t be even [[AnActOfTrueLove if]] she had ever tried to defend him from his mother\\\'s [[ParentalFavoritism abuse]] instead of pitying herself to her; supported him in his dream instead of ruining it to force herself on him; earned her own nobility and money with those medicines not to drag him down instead of buying him like a slave; had taken the hint and tried to divorce when she saw how unwanted she was instead of creeping on him abroad and even using a baby as a pawn.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted (while she easily persuaded a stranger abroad to help her BedTrick her suitor), her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted (while she easily persuaded a stranger abroad to help her BedTrick her suitor), her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\')
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse. Yes, it\\\'s not very nice to be haughty - [[ValuesDissonance though, would a medieval character deserve persecution for not being a democrat?]] - but \\\'\\\'why on earth was he morally obliged to be interested in her?\\\'\\\')
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted (while she easily persuaded a stranger abroad to help her BedTrick her suitor), her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted (while she easily persuaded a stranger abroad to help her BedTrick her suitor), her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised, let alone [[ObstructiveLoveInterest sacrifice his ambitions for you]] (be it getting fired just to spend a romantic weekend with you, or give up the chance to prove himself just to be your MealTicket).
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted (while she easily persuaded a stranger abroad to help her BedTrick her suitor), her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. In general, she is rewarded for the same selfishness and dishonesty he is punished for, which reminds me either of this trope or ProtagonistCenteredMorality. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Even my AlternativeCharacterInterpretation was deleted where I doubted it was love on her part since she doesn\\\'t do anything selfless for him, but concentrates all her determination to \\\'\\\'owning\\\'\\\' him. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it feels ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about his simple disinterest and rejection of Helena like it were IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it\\\'s ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about him not feeling honored by Helena creeping on him, like he is morally obliged to be interested in her, even grateful for being publicly degraded into a slave for sale to be a penniless servant girl\\\'s MealTicket. There is no such beautiful, rich, elite and adorable suitor \\\'\\\'I\\\'\\\' wouldn\\\'t hate after such proposal, even provided I \\\'\\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\'\\\' like them before it, we haven\\\'t grown up like siblings and they didn\\\'t have my mother\\\'s blatant ParentalFavoritism at my expense. On her part, ruining her beloved\\\'s career to force herself on him, just sitting and listening while he is bullied, even using both their reputation to drag him kicking and screaming into an unwanted marriage, somehow doesn\\\'t say \\\'true love\\\' to me. In my memories about tales, forcing someone into a marriage is something \\\'\\\'villains\\\'\\\' do.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it\\\'s ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about him not feeling honored by Helena creeping on him, like he is morally obliged to be interested in her, even grateful for being publicly degraded into a slave for sale to be a penniless servant girl\\\'s MealTicket. There is no such beautiful, rich, elite and adorable suitor \\\'\\\'I\\\'\\\' wouldn\\\'t hate after such proposal, even provided I \\\'\\\'\\\'did\\\'\\\'\\\' like them before it, we haven\\\'t grown up like siblings and they didn\\\'t have my mother\\\'s blatant ParentalFavoritism at my expense. On her part, ruining her beloved\\\'s career to force herself on him, just sitting and listening while he is bullied, even using both their reputation to drag him kicking and screaming into an unwanted marriage, somehow doesn\\\'t say \\\'true love\\\' to me. In my memories about tales, forcing someone into a marriage is something \\\'\\\'villains\\\'\\\' do.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it\\\'s ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about him not feeling honored by Helena creeping on him, like he is morally obliged to be interested in her, even grateful for being publicly degraded into a slave for sale to be a penniless servant girl\\\'s MealTicket. There is no such beautiful, rich, elite and adorable suitor \\\'\\\'I\\\'\\\' wouldn\\\'t hate after such proposal. On her part, ruining her beloved\\\'s career to force herself on him, just sitting and listening while he is bullied, even using both their reputation to drag him kicking and screaming into an unwanted marriage, somehow doesn\\\'t say \\\'true love\\\' to me. In my memories about tales, forcing someone into a marriage is something \\\'\\\'villains\\\'\\\' do.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it\\\'s ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about him not feeling honored by Helena creeping on him, like he is morally obliged to be interested in her, even grateful for being publicly degraded into a slave for sale to be a penniless servant girl\\\'s MealTicket. There is no such beautiful, rich, elite and adorable suitor \\\'\\\'I\\\'\\\' wouldn\\\'t hate after such proposal. On her part, ruining her beloved\\\'s career to force herself on him, just sitting and listening while he is bullied, even using both their reputation to drag him kicking and screaming into an unwanted marriage, somehow doesn\\\'t say \\\'true love\\\' to me. In my memories about tales, forcing someone into a marriage is something \\\'\\\'villains\\\'\\\' do.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it\\\'s ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about him not feeling honored by Helena creeping on him, like he is morally obliged to be interested in her, even grateful for being publicly degraded into a slave for sale to be a penniless servant girl\\\'s MealTicket. On her part, ruining her beloved\\\'s career to force herself on him, just sitting and listening while he is bullied, even using both their reputation to drag him kicking and screaming into an unwanted marriage, somehow doesn\\\'t say \\\'true love\\\' to me. In my memories about tales, forcing someone into a marriage is something \\\'\\\'villains\\\'\\\' do.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it\\\'s ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about him not feeling honored by Helena creeping on him, like he is morally obliged to be interested in her, even grateful for being publicly degraded into a slave for sale to be a penniless servant girl\\\'s MealTicket. On her part, ruining her beloved\\\'s career to force herself on him, just sitting and listening while he is bullied, even using both their reputation to drag him kicking and screaming into an unwanted marriage, somehow doesn\\\'t say \\\'true love\\\' to me. In my memories about tales, forcing someone into a marriage is something \\\'\\\'villains\\\'\\\' do.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it\\\'s ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about him not feeling honored by Helena creeping on him, like he is morally obliged to be interested in her. On her part, ruining her beloved\\\'s career to force herself on him, just sitting and listening while he is bullied, even using both their reputation to drag him kicking and screaming into an unwanted marriage, somehow doesn\\\'t say \\\'true love\\\' to me. In my memories about tales, forcing someone into a marriage is something \\\'\\\'villains\\\'\\\' do.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it\\\'s ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about him not feeling honored by Helena creeping on him, like he is morally obliged to be interested in her. On her part, ruining her beloved\\\'s career to force herself on him, just sitting and listening while he is bullied, even using both their reputation to drag him kicking and screaming into an unwanted marriage, somehow doesn\\\'t say \\\'true love\\\' to me. In my memories about tales, forcing someone into a marriage is something \\\'\\\'villains\\\'\\\' do.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it\\\'s ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about him not feeling honored by Helena creeping on him, like he is morally obliged to be interested in her. On her part, ruining her beloved\\\'s career to force herself on him, just sitting and listening while he is bullied, even using both their reputation to drag him kicking and screaming into an unwanted marriage, somehow doesn\\\'t say \\\'true love\\\'.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard. (I know he wasn\\\'t a saint. What he tried to do to Diana was disgusting. For that, he should be vilified. But it\\\'s ridiculous of the cast to throw a fit about him not feeling honored by Helena creeping on him, like he is morally obliged to be interested in her. On her part, ruining her beloved\\\'s career to force herself on him, just sitting and listening while he is bullied, even using both their reputation to drag him kicking and screaming into an unwanted marriage, somehow doesn\\\'t say \\\'true love\\\'.)
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise. That\\\'s why I am starting to see him not as a haughty {{Jerkass}} but TheUnfavorite OnlySaneMan, and her not as a poor LoveMartyr but a BitchInSheepsClothing ManipulativeBastard.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a [[ManipulativeBastard public surprise-proposal]] even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a public surprise-proposal even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just [[MadeOutToBeAJerkass wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so]], not trying to pretend otherwise.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just [[MadeOutToBeAJerkass wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so]], not trying to pretend otherwise.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. Try turning down a [[ManipulativeBastard public surprise-proposal]] even in our century without being MadeOutToBeAJerkass. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just [[MadeOutToBeAJerkass wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so]], not trying to pretend otherwise.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just [[MadeOutToBeAJerkass wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so]], not trying to pretend otherwise.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just [[MadeOutToBeAJerkass wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so]], not trying to pretend otherwise.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just [[MadeOutToBeAJerkass wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so]], not trying to pretend otherwise.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness? And I am thinking the same about the LoveMartyr \\\'s entitlement both here and in the Brian/Justin romance in \\\'\\\'QueerAsFolk\\\'\\\': your beloved may be a narcissistic spoiled jerk, but that doesn\\\'t give you the right to [[StalkerWithACrush force yourself into his life]], [[GoldDigger parasite on what he has]] and still play the victim because he doesn\\\'t give you the romance he has never promised.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[OuthumblingEachOther ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[PlayingTheVictimCard ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness?
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness?
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is [[OuthumblingEachOther ostentatiously a martyr]] meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness?
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness?
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness?
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise.
In general, I was wondering whether it\\\'s also a DoubleStandard that if the hot, powerful {{Jerkass}} is shallow for not being interested in a cute but unremarkable DoggedNiceGirl, why isn\\\'t the girl shallow for getting obsessed with said jerk\\\'s hotness?
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal, from the gesture of buying him from the king in public and out of the blue. In the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. Only [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ Theresa Basile]] thought of the stalkerish aspect of her actions. I also doubt he had ever bullied her. He just wasn\\\'t interested in her and told her so, not trying to pretend otherwise.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. I seem to be the first to think that even if the UnrequitedTragicMaiden is perfection incarnate and way out of her beloved\\\'s league, he isn\\\'t morally obliged to be interested in her, and even if he were, that wouldn\\\'t mean she would do the right thing by violently and dishonestly forcing herself on him. Except [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ her]], but she sees it a little too modernly. I may be also LiteralMinded about it, but I think even if norms, laws and moralities do change, empathy is timeless, and \\\"love\\\" in no age and culture means \\\'ruining my beloved for my own selfish gains\\\', however legal it would be. Plenty of stories from when ArrangedMarriage was flourishing point out that a truly loving suitor wouldn\\\'t take advantage of the permission of forcing a marriage. That\\\'s why I think ArrangedMarriage being the norm doesn\\\'t make her intentions better, nor could any reaction of his make him be in the wrong, even if his polite disinterest and saying no and meaning it would be the IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse it\\\'s treated like.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. I seem to be the first to think that even if the UnrequitedTragicMaiden is perfection incarnate and way out of her beloved\\\'s league, he isn\\\'t morally obliged to be interested in her, and even if he were, that wouldn\\\'t mean she would do the right thing by violently and dishonestly forcing herself on him. Except [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ her]], but she sees it a little too modernly. I may be also LiteralMinded about it, but I think even if norms, laws and moralities do change, empathy is timeless, and \\\"love\\\" in no age and culture means \\\'ruining my beloved for my own selfish gains\\\', however legal it would be. Plenty of stories from when ArrangedMarriage was flourishing point out that a truly loving suitor wouldn\\\'t take advantage of the permission of forcing a marriage. That\\\'s why I think ArrangedMarriage being the norm doesn\\\'t make her intentions better, nor could any reaction of his make him be in the wrong, even if his polite disinterest and saying no and meaning it would be the IrrationalHatred and DomesticAbuse it\\\'s treated like.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. I seem to be the first to think that even if the UnrequitedTragicMaiden is perfection incarnate and way out of her beloved\\\'s league, he isn\\\'t morally obliged to be interested in her, and even if he were, that wouldn\\\'t mean she would do the right thing by violently and dishonestly forcing herself on him. Except [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ her]], but she sees it a little too modernly. I may be also LiteralMinded about it, but I think even if norms, laws and moralities do change, empathy is timeless, and \\\"love\\\" in no age and culture means \\\'ruining my beloved for my own selfish gains\\\', however legal it would be. Plenty of stories from when ArrangedMarriage was flourishing point out that a truly loving suitor wouldn\\\'t take advantage of the permission of forcing a marriage. That\\\'s why I think ArrangedMarriage being the norm doesn\\\'t make her intentions better.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. I seem to be the first to think that even if the UnrequitedTragicMaiden is perfection incarnate and way out of her beloved\\\'s league, he isn\\\'t morally obliged to be interested in her, and even if he were, that wouldn\\\'t mean she would do the right thing by violently and dishonestly forcing herself on him. Except [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ her]], but she sees it a little too modernly. I may be also LiteralMinded about it, but I think even if norms, laws and moralities do change, empathy is timeless, and \\\"love\\\" in no age and culture means \\\'ruining my beloved for my own selfish gains\\\', however legal it would be. Plenty of stories from when ArrangedMarriage was flourishing point out that a truly loving suitor wouldn\\\'t take advantage of the permission of forcing a marriage. That\\\'s why I think ArrangedMarriage being the norm doesn\\\'t make her intentions better.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. I seem to be the first to think that even if the UnrequitedTragicMaiden is perfection incarnate and way out of her beloved\\\'s league, he isn\\\'t morally obliged to be interested in her, and even if he were, that wouldn\\\'t mean she would do the right thing by violently and dishonestly forcing herself on him. Except [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ her]], but she sees it a little too modernly. I may be also LiteralMinded about it, but I think even if norms, laws and moralities do change, empathy is timeless, and \\\"love\\\" in no age and culture means \\\'ruining my beloved for my own selfish gains\\\', however legal it would be. Plenty of stories from when ArrangedMarriage was flourishing point out that a truly loving suitor wouldn\\\'t take advantage of the permission of forcing a marriage.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. I seem to be the first to think that even if the UnrequitedTragicMaiden is perfection incarnate and way out of her beloved\\\'s league, he isn\\\'t morally obliged to be interested in her, and even if he were, that wouldn\\\'t mean she would do the right thing by violently and dishonestly forcing herself on him. Except [[http://theresabasile.com/wp/2011/07/29/alls-well-that-ends-well-not-quite/ her]], but she sees it a little too modernly. I may be also LiteralMinded about it, but I think even if norms, laws and moralities do change, empathy is timeless, and \\\"love\\\" in no age and culture means \\\'ruining my beloved for my own selfish gains\\\', however legal it would be. Plenty of stories from when ArrangedMarriage was flourishing point out that a truly loving suitor wouldn\\\'t take advantage of the permission of forcing a marriage.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. I seem to be the first to think that even if the UnrequitedTragicMaiden is perfection incarnate and way out of her beloved\\\'s league, he isn\\\'t morally obliged to be interested in her, and even if he were, that wouldn\\\'t mean she would do the right thing by violently and dishonestly forcing herself on him.
About AlternativeCharacterInterpretation, I haven\\\'t found any about her which wasn\\\'t still idealizing her and vilifying him, like \\\'she is generous to a fault, wasting her attention on someone unworthy\\\'. I seem to be the first to think that even if the UnrequitedTragicMaiden is perfection incarnate and way out of her beloved\\\'s league, he isn\\\'t morally obliged to be interested in her, and even if he were, that wouldn\\\'t mean she would do the right thing by violently and dishonestly forcing herself on him.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \'\'stops\'\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume he would be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more of \'oh no, how can he be so mean\' than \'what have I done, I didn\'t want to ruin him\'. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more entitled than apologetic. Not to mention that who regrets doing something, at least \\\'\\\'stops\\\'\\\'. She continued chasing him abroad. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more of \'oh no, how can he be so mean\' than \'what have I done, I didn\'t want to ruin him\'. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] wanted to protect Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more of \\\'oh no, how can he be so mean\\\' than \\\'what have I done, I didn\\\'t want to ruin him\\\'. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] broke up with Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her because she wanted to protect him.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more of \'oh no, how can he be so mean\' than \'what have I done, I didn\'t want to ruin him\'. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] wanted to protect Christian: she didn\'t say \
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more of \\\'oh no, how can he be so mean\\\' than \\\'what have I done, I didn\\\'t want to ruin him\\\'. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] wanted to protect Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch and make him despise her out of genuine selflessness.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more of \'oh no, how can he be so mean\' than \'what have I done, I didn\'t want to ruin him\'. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a cutely shy martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more of \\\'oh no, how can he be so mean\\\' than \\\'what have I done, I didn\\\'t want to ruin him\\\'. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. (Kind of like when [[MoulinRouge Satine]] wanted to protect Christian: she didn\\\'t say \\\"you may abandon me if you want\\\" to make him feel guilty, but she wasn\\\'t afraid to look like a bitch out of genuine selflessness.) That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\'t see the king\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more of \'oh no, how can he be so mean\' than \'what have I done, I didn\'t want to ruin him\'. And I don\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \'\'\'she\'\'\' didn\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to ge the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a cutely shy martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more of \\\'oh no, how can he be so mean\\\' than \\\'what have I done, I didn\\\'t want to ruin him\\\'. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to be the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a cutely shy martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and besides the [[SelfProclaimedLoveInterest delusion]] that her love is suddenly requited she turned unable to convince someone who was there to grant her wish, after it she acted with quite an entitlement of And Now You Must Love Me than apologetic. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and became oblivious to Bertram\\\'s disinterest, honestly couldn\\\'t see the king\\\'s reaction coming and was unable to convince someone who was granting her a wish to do what she wanted, her attitude after the wedding was more of \\\'oh no, how can he be so mean\\\' than \\\'what have I done, I didn\\\'t want to ruin him\\\'. And I don\\\'t know how she was trying to get the proposal back. If she said \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' didn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she deserved better, that would be genuine good intention at heart. If she acted like allowing him to ge the bad guy who says no while she is ostentatiously a cutely shy martyr meanwhile, that reads more like a passive-agressive way of forcing to me. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. Even if I believe she [[OutOfCharacterMoment lost all her social skills]] for the duration of the proposal scene and besides the [[SelfProclaimedLoveInterest delusion]] that her love is suddenly requited she turned unable to convince someone who was there to grant her wish, after it she acted with quite an entitlement of And Now You Must Love Me than apologetic. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to think that now he will want to marry her. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to assume that now he will be suddenly willing. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to think that now he will want to marry her. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture. And it wouldn\'t be hard of her to lie that \'\'\'she\'\'\' doesn\'t want an unloving husband because she thinks she deserves better, may the king let her choose again. It\'s unlikely the king would threaten \'\'\'her\'\'\' into sticking to her initial decision. Taking it back saying \'\'she\'\' wants him, but he doesn\'t have to because she will be a generous martyr on his behalf, while she is the one rewarded and adored here, of course didn\'t work, and I doubt a resourceful genius like her couldn\'t see that coming. Not to mention her contrition afterwards, which drove her to ask for her \'\'prey\'\' \'s kiss she was entitled to...
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to think that now he will want to marry her. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to think that now he will want to marry her. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture. And it wouldn\'t be hard of her to lie that \'\'\'she\'\'\' doesn\'t want an unloving husband because she thinks she deserves better, may the king let her choose again. It\'s unlikely the king would threaten \'\'\'her\'\'\' into sticking to her initial decision. Taking it back saying \'\'she\'\' wants him, but he doesn\'t have to because she will be a generous martyr on his behalf, while she is the one rewarded and adored here, of course didn\'t work, and I doubt a resourceful genius like her couldn\'t see that coming.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to think that now he will want to marry her. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture. And it wouldn\\\'t be hard of her to lie that \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' doesn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she thinks she deserves better, may the king let her choose again. It\\\'s unlikely the king would threaten \\\'\\\'\\\'her\\\'\\\'\\\' into sticking to her initial decision. Taking it back saying \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' wants him, but he doesn\\\'t have to because she will be a generous martyr on his behalf, while she is the one rewarded and adored here, of course didn\\\'t work, and I doubt a resourceful genius like her couldn\\\'t see that coming. Not to mention her contrition afterwards, which drove her to ask for her \\\'\\\'prey\\\'\\\' \\\'s kiss she was entitled to...
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to think that now he will want to marry her. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to think that now he will want to marry her. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture. And it wouldn\\\'t be hard of her to lie that \\\'\\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\'\\\' doesn\\\'t want an unloving husband because she thinks she deserves better, may the king let her choose again. It\\\'s unlikely the king would threaten \\\'\\\'\\\'her\\\'\\\'\\\' into sticking to her initial decision. Taking it back saying \\\'\\\'she\\\'\\\' wants him, but he doesn\\\'t have to because she will be a generous martyr on his behalf, while she is the one rewarded and adored here, of course didn\\\'t work, and I doubt a resourceful genius like her couldn\\\'t see that coming.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to think that now he will want to marry her. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. It would be quite a WastefulWishing to ask for a reward one already has, for an informedly heroic deed, like to marry someone already in love and willing. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to think that now he will want to marry her. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches. She had no reason to think that now he will want to marry her. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches, not even the public opinion changed any bit about either of them. She had no reason to think that now he will want to marry her. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, and Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\'t court her, he didn\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\'t gain any official rank or riches. She had no reason to think that now he will want to marry her. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches. She had no reason to think that now he will want to marry her. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, and Bertram was striving to be let away to the war. These weren\'t reasons to deduce that he is suddenly in love with her and wants to settle down and start a family in the near future. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, and Bertram was striving to be let away to the war, and maybe his snobbish haughtiness was also mentioned. Since then, he didn\\\'t court her, he didn\\\'t say anyone he changed his mind about the war and he\\\'d prefer staying at home and start a family, and she didn\\\'t gain any official rank or riches. She had no reason to think that now he will want to marry her. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, and Bertram was striving to be let away to the war. These weren\'t reasons to deduce that he is suddenly in love with her and wants to settle down and start a family in the near future. But even if she where convinced he would be willing, she should have a regret sounding like \'I am so sorry you are in trouble because of me, I\'ll do my best to correct it and you can at least go after your dreams\', instead of \'I want to use my property for a kiss, after even making you beg me to ask, and screw your dreams, stay at home and court me or I\'ll run to your mother complaining how cruel you are\'. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]].
Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, and Bertram was striving to be let away to the war. These weren\\\'t reasons to deduce that he is suddenly in love with her and wants to settle down and start a family in the near future. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]]. Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, and Bertram was striving to be let away to the war. These weren\'t reasons to deduce that he is suddenly in love with her and wants to settle down and start a family in the near future. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]].
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, and Bertram was striving to be let away to the war. These weren\\\'t reasons to deduce that he is suddenly in love with her and wants to settle down and start a family in the near future. But even if she where convinced he would be willing, she should have a regret sounding like \\\'I am so sorry you are in trouble because of me, I\\\'ll do my best to correct it and you can at least go after your dreams\\\', instead of \\\'I want to use my property for a kiss, after even making you beg me to ask, and screw your dreams, stay at home and court me or I\\\'ll run to your mother complaining how cruel you are\\\'. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]].
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, and Bertram was striving to be let away to the war. These weren\'t reasons to deduce that he is suddenly in love with her and wants to settle down and start a family in the near future. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]].
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the beholden authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, and Bertram was striving to be let away to the war. These weren\\\'t reasons to deduce that he is suddenly in love with her and wants to settle down and start a family in the near future. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]].
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\'t do more than admire him from afar, and Bertram was striving to be let away to the war. These weren\'t reasons to deduce that he is suddenly in love with her and wants to settle down and start a family in the near future. That\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but manipulative selfishness which isn\'t a sign of love.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, and Bertram was striving to be let away to the war. These weren\\\'t reasons to deduce that he is suddenly in love with her and wants to settle down and start a family in the near future. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but [[AlternativeCharacterInterpretation manipulative selfishness]] which isn\\\'t a [[IWantMyBelovedToBeHappy sign of love]].
Changed line(s) 1 from:
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In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, she had no reason to be convinced Bertram is in love with her, since neither has Bertram ever courted her, nor was she shown to be narcissistic. And no precedent either, since she was lamenting at the beginning of the play that she can\'t have him.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, in the beginning of the play she was lamenting that she can\\\'t do more than admire him from afar, and Bertram was striving to be let away to the war. These weren\\\'t reasons to deduce that he is suddenly in love with her and wants to settle down and start a family in the near future. That\\\'s why her gesture to take him from the king didn\\\'t strike me as a mistake made with good intentions but manipulative selfishness which isn\\\'t a sign of love.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, she had no reason to be convinced Bertram is in love with her, since neither has Bertram ever courted her, nor was she shown to be narcissistic. And no precedent either, since she was lamenting at the beginning of the play that she can\'t have him.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, she had no reason to be convinced Bertram is in love with her, since neither has Bertram ever courted her, nor was she shown to be narcissistic. And no precedent either, since she was lamenting at the beginning of the play that she can\\\'t have him.
Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
Though this is always a [[RealityEnsues problematic side]] of a GrandRomanticGesture.
Changed line(s) 1 from:
n
In the text of \'\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\'\' I haven\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway.
to:
In the text of \\\'\\\'AllsWellThatEndsWell\\\'\\\' I haven\\\'t found any trace of Helena giving Bertram a choice, but even if there was, I still suspect it was nominal. Because if someone only wants a mutually loving relationship with me, they would ask me in private so I won\\\'t feel [[RuleOfCreepy pressured to say yes]], instead of setting up a public event with the authority and all the audience of their fans and my bullies to virtually buy me. Maybe permitting me to say no but I will be punished and vilified for it, as Bertram indeed was. In my eccentric interpretation of stories anyway. Besides, she had no reason to be convinced Bertram is in love with her, since neither has Bertram ever courted her, nor was she shown to be narcissistic. And no precedent either, since she was lamenting at the beginning of the play that she can\\\'t have him.
