[002]
LordGro
Current Version
Changed line(s) 4 from:
n
[[DownplayedTrope Downplayed]] with Laura\'s father and his associates. They aren\'t outright villainous, nor are they aristocrats themselves, but while they\'re nominally sympathetic to the \
to:
[[DownplayedTrope Downplayed]] with Laura\\\'s father and his associates. They aren\\\'t outright villainous, nor are they aristocrats themselves, but while they\\\'re nominally sympathetic to the \\\"illness\\\" sweeping through the local peasantry, they aren\\\'t actually concerned about it until Carmilla\\\'s predations start showing their effects on the daughters of landed men.
[[/quoteblock]]
The edit reason that went along with the addition justfies the example as follows:
[[quoteblock]]
The trope doesn\\\'t solely concern literal aristocracy, just upper classes in general, and the fact that Carmilla gets away with her spree until it affects the daughters of people with social standing is a very deliberate thematic choice.
[[/quoteblock]]
Just as [[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Literature.Carmilla#edit33836914 I said earlier]], I maintain that the example is invalid for the following reasons:
* AristocratsAreEvil doesn\\\'t say it covers non-aristocratic upper classes. There \\\'\\\'are\\\'\\\' literal aristocrats in the story and their social privilege relative to non-aristocrats is a plot point; against this background it seems even more questionable to count characters that are non-aristocrats in-story as \\\"aristocrats\\\" for the purposes of a trope. Tropes are flexible, but they are not shapeless.
* As was said already, Laura\\\'s father or General Spielsdorf are not villains and not evil. That doesn\\\'t mean they are meant to be ideal or heroic people either; they\\\'re just your average \\\"decent but flawed\\\" human beings. Quoting from chapter 4:
[[quoteblock]]
My father was out of spirits that evening. On coming in he told us that there had been another case very similar to the two fatal ones which had lately occurred. The sister of a young peasant on his estate, only a mile away, was very ill, had been, as she described it, attacked very nearly in the same way, and was now slowly but steadily sinking.
\\\"All this,\\\" said my father, \\\"is strictly referable to natural causes. These poor people infect one another with their superstitions, and so repeat in imagination the images of terror that have infested their neighbors.\\\"
[[/quoteblock]]
::That Laura\\\'s father is \\\"out of spirits\\\" over the sickness of the peasant woman implies that his sympathy for the dying peasants is real and not a mere show. He is wrong in dismissing the peasantry\\\'s belief that the disease is caused by a vampire; but that\\\'s because he is a rationalist who genuinely does not believe in vampires, not because he is indifferent towards peasant suffering.
* The example implies Laura\\\'s father or General Spielsdorf could have done something (or done more) to stop the epidemic, but did nothing because they did not really care about the dying peasants. But it\\\'s quite unclear what Spielsdorf and Laura\\\'s father could or should have done regarding the epidemic. They are not doctors or health officials, nor vampire experts. If they had known that Carmilla was a vampire and responsible for the disease, they presumably would have called on Baron Vordenburg at once; but they didn\\\'t know it, and it\\\'s not reasonable to expect them to have known. Laura\\\'s father certainly did not take Laura\\\'s deteriorating health lightly, and yet he was unable to stop her decline; same goes for General Spielsdorf and his niece. They acted the way they did because they did not know better. Their flaw is ignorance, not \\\"evil\\\" or callousness.
[[/quoteblock]]
The edit reason that went along with the addition justfies the example as follows:
[[quoteblock]]
The trope doesn\\\'t solely concern literal aristocracy, just upper classes in general, and the fact that Carmilla gets away with her spree until it affects the daughters of people with social standing is a very deliberate thematic choice.
[[/quoteblock]]
Just as [[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Literature.Carmilla#edit33836914 I said earlier]], I maintain that the example is invalid for the following reasons:
* AristocratsAreEvil doesn\\\'t say it covers non-aristocratic upper classes. There \\\'\\\'are\\\'\\\' literal aristocrats in the story and their social privilege relative to non-aristocrats is a plot point; against this background it seems even more questionable to count characters that are non-aristocrats in-story as \\\"aristocrats\\\" for the purposes of a trope. Tropes are flexible, but they are not shapeless.
* As was said already, Laura\\\'s father or General Spielsdorf are not villains and not evil. That doesn\\\'t mean they are meant to be ideal or heroic people either; they\\\'re just your average \\\"decent but flawed\\\" human beings. Quoting from chapter 4:
[[quoteblock]]
My father was out of spirits that evening. On coming in he told us that there had been another case very similar to the two fatal ones which had lately occurred. The sister of a young peasant on his estate, only a mile away, was very ill, had been, as she described it, attacked very nearly in the same way, and was now slowly but steadily sinking.
\\\"All this,\\\" said my father, \\\"is strictly referable to natural causes. These poor people infect one another with their superstitions, and so repeat in imagination the images of terror that have infested their neighbors.\\\"
[[/quoteblock]]
::That Laura\\\'s father is \\\"out of spirits\\\" over the sickness of the peasant woman implies that his sympathy for the dying peasants is real and not a mere show. He is wrong in dismissing the peasantry\\\'s belief that the disease is caused by a vampire; but that\\\'s because he is a rationalist who genuinely does not believe in vampires, not because he is indifferent towards peasant suffering.
* The example implies Laura\\\'s father or General Spielsdorf could have done something (or done more) to stop the epidemic, but did nothing because they did not really care about the dying peasants. But it\\\'s quite unclear what Spielsdorf and Laura\\\'s father could or should have done regarding the epidemic. They are not doctors or health officials, nor vampire experts. If they had known that Carmilla was a vampire and responsible for the disease, they presumably would have called on Baron Vordenburg at once; but they didn\\\'t know it, and it\\\'s not reasonable to expect them to have known. Laura\\\'s father certainly did not take Laura\\\'s deteriorating health lightly, and yet he was unable to stop her decline; same goes for General Spielsdorf and his niece. They acted the way they did because they did not know better. Their flaw is ignorance, not \\\"evil\\\" or callousness.
Changed line(s) 4 from:
n
[[DownplayedTrope Downplayed]] with Laura\'s father and his associates. They aren\'t outright villainous, nor are they aristocrats themselves, but while they\'re nominally sympathetic to the \
to:
[[DownplayedTrope Downplayed]] with Laura\\\'s father and his associates. They aren\\\'t outright villainous, nor are they aristocrats themselves, but while they\\\'re nominally sympathetic to the \\\"illness\\\" sweeping through the local peasantry, they aren\\\'t actually concerned about it until Carmilla\\\'s predations start showing their effects on the daughters of landed men.
[[/quoteblock]]
The edit reason that went along with the addition justfies the example as follows:
[[quoteblock]]
The trope doesn\\\'t solely concern literal aristocracy, just upper classes in general, and the fact that Carmilla gets away with her spree until it affects the daughters of people with social standing is a very deliberate thematic choice.
[[/quoteblock]]
Just as [[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Literature.Carmilla#edit33836914 I said earlier]], I maintain that the example is invalid for the following reasons:
* AristocratsAreEvil doesn\\\'t say it covers non-aristocratic upper classes. There \\\'\\\'are\\\'\\\' literal aristocrats in the story and their social privilege relative to non-aristocrats is a plot point; against this background it seems even more questionable to count characters that are non-aristocrats in-story as \\\"aristocrats\\\" for the purposes of a trope. Tropes are flexible, but they are not shapeless.
* As was said already, Laura\\\'s father or General Spielsdorf are not villains and not evil. That doesn\\\'t mean they are meant to be ideal or heroic people either; they\\\'re just your average \\\"decent but flawed\\\" human beings. Quoting from chapter 4:
[[quoteblock]]
My father was out of spirits that evening. On coming in he told us that there had been another case very similar to the two fatal ones which had lately occurred. The sister of a young peasant on his estate, only a mile away, was very ill, had been, as she described it, attacked very nearly in the same way, and was now slowly but steadily sinking.
\\\"All this,\\\" said my father, \\\"is strictly referable to natural causes. These poor people infect one another with their superstitions, and so repeat in imagination the images of terror that have infested their neighbors.\\\"
[[/quoteblock]]
::That Laura\\\'s father is \\\"out of spirits\\\" over the sickness of the peasant woman implies that his sympathy for the dying peasants is real and not a mere show. He is wrong in dismissing the peasantry\\\'s belief that the disease is caused by a vampire; but that\\\'s because he is a rationalist who genuinely does not believe in vampires, not because he is indifferent towards peasant suffering.
* The example implies Laura\\\'s father or General Spielsdorf could have done something (or done more) to stop the epidemic, but did nothing because they did not really care about the dying peasants. But it\\\'s quite unclear what Spielsdorf and Laura\\\'s father could have done to stop the epidemic. They are not doctors or health officials, nor vampire experts. If they had known that Carmilla was a vampire and responsible for the disease, they presumably would have called on Baron Vordenburg at once; but they didn\\\'t know it, and it\\\'s not reasonable to expect them to have known. Laura\\\'s father certainly did not take Laura\\\'s deteriorating health lightly, and yet he was unable to stop her decline; same goes for General Spielsdorf and his niece. They acted the way they did because they did not know better. Their flaw is ignorance, not \\\"evil\\\" or callousness.
[[/quoteblock]]
The edit reason that went along with the addition justfies the example as follows:
[[quoteblock]]
The trope doesn\\\'t solely concern literal aristocracy, just upper classes in general, and the fact that Carmilla gets away with her spree until it affects the daughters of people with social standing is a very deliberate thematic choice.
[[/quoteblock]]
Just as [[https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/article_history.php?article=Literature.Carmilla#edit33836914 I said earlier]], I maintain that the example is invalid for the following reasons:
* AristocratsAreEvil doesn\\\'t say it covers non-aristocratic upper classes. There \\\'\\\'are\\\'\\\' literal aristocrats in the story and their social privilege relative to non-aristocrats is a plot point; against this background it seems even more questionable to count characters that are non-aristocrats in-story as \\\"aristocrats\\\" for the purposes of a trope. Tropes are flexible, but they are not shapeless.
* As was said already, Laura\\\'s father or General Spielsdorf are not villains and not evil. That doesn\\\'t mean they are meant to be ideal or heroic people either; they\\\'re just your average \\\"decent but flawed\\\" human beings. Quoting from chapter 4:
[[quoteblock]]
My father was out of spirits that evening. On coming in he told us that there had been another case very similar to the two fatal ones which had lately occurred. The sister of a young peasant on his estate, only a mile away, was very ill, had been, as she described it, attacked very nearly in the same way, and was now slowly but steadily sinking.
\\\"All this,\\\" said my father, \\\"is strictly referable to natural causes. These poor people infect one another with their superstitions, and so repeat in imagination the images of terror that have infested their neighbors.\\\"
[[/quoteblock]]
::That Laura\\\'s father is \\\"out of spirits\\\" over the sickness of the peasant woman implies that his sympathy for the dying peasants is real and not a mere show. He is wrong in dismissing the peasantry\\\'s belief that the disease is caused by a vampire; but that\\\'s because he is a rationalist who genuinely does not believe in vampires, not because he is indifferent towards peasant suffering.
* The example implies Laura\\\'s father or General Spielsdorf could have done something (or done more) to stop the epidemic, but did nothing because they did not really care about the dying peasants. But it\\\'s quite unclear what Spielsdorf and Laura\\\'s father could have done to stop the epidemic. They are not doctors or health officials, nor vampire experts. If they had known that Carmilla was a vampire and responsible for the disease, they presumably would have called on Baron Vordenburg at once; but they didn\\\'t know it, and it\\\'s not reasonable to expect them to have known. Laura\\\'s father certainly did not take Laura\\\'s deteriorating health lightly, and yet he was unable to stop her decline; same goes for General Spielsdorf and his niece. They acted the way they did because they did not know better. Their flaw is ignorance, not \\\"evil\\\" or callousness.
