Catherine- from the creators of Persona

I got the normal Katherine ending in my sole playthrough. I disliked how Katherine deliberately lied about being pregnant to trap Vincent in a relationship. I guess one of the reasons why I disliked the game was because the ending I got for the answers I inputted into the questionnaires didn't feel like a good enough reward. On top of the game being very hard (even on Easy!), it didn't seem worthwhile to slog through it again just to find out if Catherine was a liar, too.

Edited by BearyScary on Feb 17th 2019 at 8:22:51 AM

I actually think it was less to trap him and more to get him to do something to take their relationship to another level. He's aimless in life and that's keeping their relationship from advancing. That does NOT change that Katherine went to the extreme by saying she was pregnant to get him to commit, when she should have instead said she'll break up if he doesn't try to move the relationship forward.

In retrospect that's one of the things that bothers me a bit about Catherine. I understand it's probably deliberate due to him being something of an Everyman, but Vincent is a pretty bland character honestly. Looking back it just makes me wish I was playing as Johnny or Orlando.

Johnnys alien girlfriend-probably wife is certainly unique in appearance.

I do like how they make pretty clear Katherine ain't interested in him, even when he no longer holds back from confessing because hes friends with Vincent.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 17th 2019 at 9:53:26 AM

So on tumblr I messaged artemis-maia, one of the best known Persona bloggers there, to ask her opinion on the Hashino controversy. She, in turn, got a message saying that Hashino did NOT write the new stuff this time; is that true? If so I feel shitty for misblaming him.

I blame Atlus as a whole, personally, but homophobic and transphobic trends exist in virtually all of the games he has directed. Where there's smoke and all that.

Edited by LordVatek on Feb 19th 2019 at 5:13:18 AM

From what I heard yes. He did not write anything for the new game.

...so then, who's the likely culprit here?

It doesn't matter who, and it never really does in situations like this. All that matters is that is happened.

However, via eirikrjs I found this post from a transgender woman who apparently knows an "industry scuttlebutt" who says this and all the other stuff in his games are absolutely Hashino's views on gay and trans folk. Admittedly hearsay, but interesting.

I wouldn't put any clout into what is said there. There have been people there point out their "facts" are clearly bias but people have ignored it. For starters the Hitting Rin was slapping his hand away and Vincent immediately regrets it. The one who gets PUNCHED is Vincent by Jonny for essentially stringing Katherine along.

It was one of those dramatic anime versions too. Slapping Hands Away.

But with the way people act about it Vincent would be pinning Rin on the ground and repeatedly punching his face in.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 19th 2019 at 3:16:30 AM

Either way it's still a bad scene that plays into harmful tropes.

Never denied it wasn't the best, but the negativity and cycle of hate for hates sake just makes it turn into something worse, and when people try to reasonably say what happens, it's ignored.

It's not hates for hates sake, it's actual trans people speaking on a subject that harms them.

Maybe you should listen.

Edited by deludedmusings on Feb 19th 2019 at 9:52:31 PM

I am listening, but the game isn't even out in english and the people in the thread trying to talk instead of perpetuating a cycle of hate are ignored. Like the one pointing out Eric implying he's going to transition in the future of one ending where Catherine distorts history. I saw OTHER sites link to that post because everyone was ignoring it there, and they always word the handslap into making it out like he started physically beating Rin repeatedly in the face.

And it does handle Erica and Tobys relationship way better than the originsl game ever did, but why mention that they fuck up on some parts while also doing better than they did before on others? Because then they can't focus on their cycle of hate. It's a vicious, poisonous cycle, that ends up leaving no one happy in the long run.

I don't even think its wrong to criticize their mishandling or misues of those issues in games, or how Atlus has always fucked up even when they do something well. Like Jun and Tatsuya.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 19th 2019 at 4:11:06 AM

Yeah I'm in no mood to give Atlus the benefit of the doubt on this subject because they always do this. If I see anything that says that they treat a trans person as anything more than a punchline at best, I'll change my attitude. But I just haven't.

They removed the insulting joke about Erica wanting to be a pro wrestler, and she even is going to be one in Rins ending.

Instead of Erica having sex with Toby being treated as "EW I HAD SEX WITH A DUDE" like Katherines ending, he's actually in a relationship with her in that Rin ending. They even removed the Deadname if I recall from the credits when I watched it. But they got careless with Catherines new ending, or how weird Rins past is.

Rin is like, the most wholesome character in the story and it's his origins that is just so fucking weird with the aliens, everyone accepting aliens, Johnny marrying an alien, Rins true form being a pink Minion, etc.

It's just too absurd and fantastical.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 19th 2019 at 4:21:50 AM

They didn't remove the deadname. They just switched it around.

Edited by LordVatek on Feb 19th 2019 at 7:21:22 AM

Ah I missed it as I saw Erica. Goddamn it Atlus.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 19th 2019 at 4:25:48 AM

I'm not going to give them credit for removing that joke (and not any of the other ones) since it's literally inaccurate now, given that there is a japanese trans woman wrestler in real life.

Yeah I heard about that. Probably why they decided that yeah Erica can be a Pro-wrestler now.

I'm not giving Atlus the benefit of the doubt either (though I'm a rather unforgiving person anyway). There is a clear pattern of behavior here on Atlus' part and it's fishy at best. There are some queer characters here and there, and not all of them are treated as punchlines or Unsettling Gender-Reveals (I think that Kanji is a fine, possibly bisexual character), but generally, I'd say their queer representation is mixed to negative.

I remember reading a tweet saying that a trans male was misgendered in Persona 2; can anyone on this thread confirm that? I personally don't remember that scene from either game, but it's been years since I played through them.

Are they talking about the person who, because everyone mocked her for being butch wished for a penis in P2?

I don't know; I don't recall that character.

yes, there was a random NPC in P2 (innocent sin at least), who heavily implies that they wished to be a different biological sex, and the text playing off that they look weird/wrong.

it was very transphobic, on par with the operation babe hunt from p3, only being "better" in that it was just 1 random npc the player could easily miss, and not a mandatory story scene.