Absent people

@ The people who are choosing to stay and make this place better:

At times, when really nice people have decided to leave, I've been very sad and surprised. Why can't people see that leaving won't accomplish anything, and that by staying and remaining reasonable, they can make this place fun even if there are times when it gets dark in here? They should know that their quitting is only prolonging the misery and that they could've genuinely helped by simply participating in the threads where they're having fun and keeping it fun. Every post that makes other tropers laugh or smile is contributing to keeping this place worth the trouble.

I'll admit that at some point, I was thinking about thinking about thinking about leaving. (Yeah, I never came really close to leaving.) What I realised was that if I left, I'd be encouraging others to do so and I'd be depriving everyone of whatever it is that sometimes resulted in positive feedback from you guys. Every time I felt this place was getting depressing, I saw a really funny or intelligent (or usually both) post or got a positive PM or saw something nice added to my user page, and it made me realise how much I would have to ignore to see this place as grim and dark.

I'm gonna do what I can to make OTC more enjoyable, and so should you (if you're into OTC, that is.) I'm gonna do what I can to make TV Tropes more enjoyable, and so should you.

@Best Of:

During the holidays, I was a bit shocked to see that a few Writer's Block residents had jumped ship.

Instead of going with them, I volunteered to be a Herald. That was one of the main motivations for me jumping onto the position.

Yesterday, I adopted a few YKTTWs.

Let's hope that's a step in the right direction.

I'm staying too.

Sure, there are sometimes things that happen here that I'm not thrilled with, and sure there are some people who I don't get along with and prefer to try to ignore, but the truth is that I'd find that anywhere. I certainly have found that on other forums I've frequented. But as long as my enjoyment of the forums and the wiki and the online friendships I've made here are strong enough to outweigh the negative, I'll still be around. I can't promise how much I'll help improve the site or whatever aside from the stuff I usually do (try to be reasonable, holler posts if I think something's wrong, and enjoy the forum and wiki) but I'm not ready to jump ship yet. Not unless the bad starts to outweigh the good and I no longer enjoy the site.

Never was one for speeches, but I guess I wanted to try and show some solidarity.

I couldn't leave even if I wanted to.

It seems to me that folks who choose to leave feel that it's a lost cause, that electing to stay would really accomplish just as much as (or even less than) deciding to quit. An impression I've got is that people who leave would like to change the site for the better and may even have tried to do so through discussion on the forums, but all too often does it seem like their best efforts aren't making a difference.

And I won't deny that I have sometimes felt that way myself.

Which confuses me, because it seems like most efforts DO make a difference here. Trope names get changed, we have an analysis name space, we got rid of troper tales, and now the new rules for OTC.

edited 15th Jan '12 8:06:19 AM by MrAHR

How long did it take for any of these to take off?

Yes, obviously, but I'd like to repeat something I said just now (by quoting someone else who said it, too:)

I think this is the attitude I've had while I've been here, and I really do think that every one of those three are very, very important when it comes to making this site work. You don't really need to do any more than that.

edited 15th Jan '12 8:10:44 AM by BestOf

A medium amount. That's how life works. It's an uphill battle. No one is going to just hand change out on a whim. If you're not willing to put the time and effort in, then don't. If you're willing to, be prepared to have said uphill battle.

If you were expecting something to happen easily, then you are in the wrong dimension.

edited 15th Jan '12 8:13:26 AM by MrAHR

While it is really depressing seeing this many people leave...honestly, the only reason I'm still staying here is because it's easiest way for me to talk to some people.

Let's be quite honest; they were enacted to mitigate criticism, not to improve the website.

It certainly feels like changes are usually done to mitigate the Goon menace than any other reason.

You're confusing real life with the internet and how it works.

Not only that, but there's no justification whatsoever to keep said problematic aspects of the place for so long after there was almost a consistent and unanimous backlash.

Last time I checked, on the internet, were people from real life. Therefore, psychology works the same way. People are still people, no matter what the medium, and people are going to be tough to work with.

Furthermore, as have been shown on many threads, it's never unanimous. Ever. Not troper's tales, not OTC hate, not anything.

edited 15th Jan '12 8:18:32 AM by MrAHR

Psychology doesn't work that way. People do not always behave the same way in different environments. This is an environment that is quite different from real life. Not only that, but you're ascribing a quality that you see in a certain quantity of people to...well, all people. Not every person is adamant to the idea of not changing things.

Almost unanimous doesn't mean 100% unanimous, you know.

edited 15th Jan '12 8:23:17 AM by juancarlos

The environment is different for some people, but more or less, most people are going to hold the same values online that they do in real life. And one of the things people hold in real life, is the belief they are right.

If this was incorrect, why are you arguing this?

And "almost" unanimous still implies an overwhelming majority, which is once again not true.

edited 15th Jan '12 8:24:44 AM by MrAHR

That's not entirely wrong, but the thing is, even sometimes, hell, most of the time, you gotta swallow your pride and admit that you might be wrong. Especially when you got at least half of your userbase asking you to please please reconsider what you're doing.

I may believe I'm right, but I most certainly not know if I am.

It was big enough for any of these things to happen. Just too late and after the damage was done.

It once again, was not half the userbase. You are using exaggerations to try and make yourself appear bigger than you really are. There are plenty of people who never entered that thread, or did and bailed, and many other things.

You can claim there was certainly enough people, but throw around inflated numbers like that, and all you get is hyperbole.

And keep in mind, as I said, when these things happen, things usually change. That's what I don't get. Yes it takes a while, did you think if you just said it once, a person would drop all their personal beliefs up to that point and say "Yep, I should trust you!"

Life doesn't work like, on internet, or off of internet, and if you're looking for a place that's going to take your word as something more than just one opinion out of many, you might want to find another place.

If you think things are "too late" you're thinking about it wrong. Why is it too late? Because you had to work for it? Because it took more than one attempt? What do you think life consists of? Oh, I'm sorry, the internet is not comparable to real life, is that it? Then why do you care?

Every group is going to have a portion in the group that wants to change things. That's a good thing. Everyone needs someone to point out what's wrong. That's how it works. I am not part of it, but I see the need for it. So, if you want to change things, you can't get mad when others meet you half way. You might not have gotten everything you want, but a victory is a victory regardless.

All I'm saying is, if you don't want to put in the time, don't bother complaining about how it's "too late" or whatever, because that really doesn't help matters at all. If you DO want to put in the time, don't leave in a scoff because it's not custom tailored to your standards, or it took some effort to do!

If you don't like where the site is going, fine. If you think it's not worth the time, fine. But it comes to a point where it's just an Unpleasable Fanbase at its worst.

edited 15th Jan '12 8:40:04 AM by MrAHR

I'm still certain anyone that voted to keep troper tales hadn't actually read them.

Yeah, fuck it.

All I'm gonna say before dropping this is that there's a huge difference between an effort and taking a goddamn year to doing things that don't even touch half the problems this site has.

Obviously it wasn't half the userbase, but in the "Appeal to Moderation" thread the division between the people responding was clear; tropers on one side and moderators (with two or three sycophants) on the other.

edited 15th Jan '12 8:48:28 AM by TheGloomer

Gloomer: Which is why Eddie changed the rules, did he not?