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RedHunter543 Nothing is absolute. Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Nothing is absolute.
Jun 28th 2020 at 8:43:49 PM

With the rising perception that Snape is an incel, i guess the idea that Lily should have forgiven Snape and not dated James is also becoming less popular.

Nikkolas from Texas Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Jun 28th 2020 at 8:44:57 PM

“HE DIDN’T DISAPPARATE!” Snape roared, now very close at hand. “YOU CAN’T APPARATE OR DISAPPARATE INSIDE THIS CASTLE! THIS — HAS — SOMETHING — TO — DO — WITH — POTTER!”

“Severus — be reasonable — Harry has been locked up —”

BAM.

The door of the hospital wing burst open. Fudge, Snape, and Dumbledore came striding into the ward. Dumbledore alone looked calm. Indeed, he looked as though he was quite enjoying himself. Fudge appeared angry. But Snape was beside himself.

“OUT WITH IT, POTTER!” he bellowed. “WHAT DID YOU DO?”

[...]

Snape stood there, seething, staring from Fudge, who looked thoroughly shocked at his behavior, to Dumbledore, whose eyes were twinkling behind his glasses. Snape whirled about, robes swishing behind him, and stormed out of the ward.

“Fellow seems quite unbalanced,” said Fudge, staring after him. “I’d watch out for him if I were you, Dumbledore.”

“Oh, he’s not unbalanced,” said Dumbledore quietly. “He’s just suffered a severe disappointment.”

Book Snape rules.

deludedmusings Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Jun 28th 2020 at 8:46:05 PM

Yeah, Snape as a character has not aged well at all for large segments of the fandom.

I think that's actually true of Dumbledore as well, although it's more "what part of the fandom dislikes him" has shifted.

Holding a grudge is allowing someone to live inside your head rent free.
RedHunter543 Nothing is absolute. Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Nothing is absolute.
Jun 28th 2020 at 8:47:35 PM

What characters have aged well?

I guess Neville?

deludedmusings Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Jun 28th 2020 at 8:49:14 PM

Neville, definitely. His popularity has only increased.

Luna, maybe?

Holding a grudge is allowing someone to live inside your head rent free.
Blueace Blue Reflection Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Blue Reflection
Jun 28th 2020 at 9:45:16 PM

Wonder how stuff like The Quibbler looks now.

M84 YOU HATE TIME TRAVEL from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
YOU HATE TIME TRAVEL
Jun 28th 2020 at 9:52:00 PM

NVM

Edited by M84 on Jun 29th 2020 at 12:52:29 AM

Disgusted, but not surprised
DrunkenNordmann from Exile
Jun 28th 2020 at 10:09:31 PM

[up][up] I mean, there's that bit about its founder running around with the setting's equivalent of the swastika as a fashion accessory.

Ceterum autem censeo Iam Primum Postem esse delendam.
Blueace Blue Reflection Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Blue Reflection
Jun 28th 2020 at 10:25:59 PM

More like, he used the symbol forgetting or not caring that the Nazi changed its meaning forever and nearly caused a fist fight with the guy from Poland.

Edited by Blueace on Jun 28th 2020 at 1:27:46 PM

Jun 28th 2020 at 11:53:38 PM

Xeno really hasn't aged well to some people, I've generally seen comparisons to anti-science individuals and anti-vaxxers.

Harry who is explicitly painted as a unique saintly human being who is the only person on Earth who could have looked into a mirror that showed them their heart's desire and it showed him only the way to save the world.

No, Snape can't compare with St. Harry. Luckily we understand people can't all be saints. Some poor people will probably end up selling drugs because they're poor and we maybe give them some leniency. Some people from abusive households will become abusers themselves and we recognize this and try to help them with it.

Judgment and condemnation are rarely useful tools for self-improvement.

It's a miracle Harry wasn't more screwed up by his upbringing, but I wouldn't consider Harry a saint.

On your second point, I largely agree with you. My issue here is that Snape didn't want to move on from his issues. It's easy to say people need help, but also requires them to want help otherwise it ends up a wasted effort.

Edited by Cross on Jun 29th 2020 at 3:03:11 PM

M84 YOU HATE TIME TRAVEL from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
YOU HATE TIME TRAVEL
Jun 28th 2020 at 11:56:36 PM

Snape clearly didn't want Lily's help. Heck, he spat on it by calling her a slur.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Jun 29th 2020 at 12:45:59 AM

My favorite Snape moment is 'Your head is not allowed in Hogsmeade. No part of your body is allowed in Hogsmeade.' XD

The Protomen enhanced my life.
Jun 29th 2020 at 2:28:11 AM

He said it because he hung around people who said it and he said it himself to people who Weren't Lily and finally he was out of his mind with anger and humiliation. That isn't an excuse, it's the explanation both explicit and implicit.
Well, yes. That is probably the best explanation, that we can ever get.

Nikkolas from Texas Relationship Status: Anime is my true love
Jun 29th 2020 at 11:50:34 AM

@ Cross

I agree wholeheartedly with all of that. In fact, some people are determinedly blind to the fact some people deserve the bad things that happen to them for their poor decisions.

But that's a matter for adults. Snape was a child who was forced to live with people who would torture him if he was a "blood traitor." Even if he wanted to change, he could not out of fear for his life.

Snape had everything working against him trying to be a better person: he was a child and therefore not fully rational or responsible for his actions, he was from a broken home, he was surrounded by people who would do horrid things to him if he ever opposed them.

The story of Severus Snape is a man who drifted along the Harry-Voldemort spectrum. Harry you might not consider a saint but the narrative clearly does. He was pretty much always selfless and wanted nothing but the best for everyone. Then there was Voldemort who epitomized selfishness and felt nothing for anyone. Snape drifted perilously close to Voldemort but his feelings for Lily stopped that and pushed him closer to Harry. Not terribly close but still, it be like:

Harry<————-Snape——————————————————->Voldemort.

So he did improve himself. Not as much as he could have obviously but his descent was clearly halted and reversed.

Jun 29th 2020 at 12:02:51 PM

How much of that applies after Voldemort's fall? Dumbledore may have wanted him in a position to rejoin Tom should he return, however the dickery was all Snape. Severus does end up in a somewhat better place, but most of what held him back is due Snape choosing to carry it.

Edited by Cross on Jun 29th 2020 at 4:02:54 AM

Blueace Blue Reflection Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Blue Reflection
Jun 29th 2020 at 12:28:16 PM

After a point, your decisions, whatever the reasons, are your own, and the consequences your fault. Snape passed that point a good while ago. As an adult, he should take responsibility for the disaster he is.

Jun 29th 2020 at 12:34:52 PM

Snape with Lily was a classic example of how bad the "racist, but with exceptions" mentality is. To Snape, Lily was except from his ideology, and he thought he could have his cake and eat it too, until the point where his pride boiled over and he picked one over the other - revealing to Lily what he was.

His "love" for her as an adult is uncomfortably selfish and possessive as well. His noble goal of protecting Harry to keep Lily's sacrifice alive is severely undercut by the fact that he abused the kid as far as he could get away with just because he was a reminder the he couldn't have her.

Hell, his regret about giving Voldemort the prophecy is also undercut by the fact that his first inclination was to try "okay, kill the kid and James, but leave Lily for me" - and then he went to Dumbledore when he wasn't sure that would work. Eugh.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jun 29th 2020 at 2:10:47 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
deludedmusings Relationship Status: Above such petty unnecessities
Jun 29th 2020 at 4:24:09 PM

Yup, he didn't care until it impacted him. And even when he 'changed' he was still an awful person.

Even his best actions are directed by his selfish and possessive attachment to Lily.

Holding a grudge is allowing someone to live inside your head rent free.
RedHunter543 Nothing is absolute. Relationship Status: Barbecuing
Nothing is absolute.
Jun 29th 2020 at 5:05:28 PM

[up][up] At least Dumbledore called Snape out on his attempted comforting the Widow act.

Snape's a flawed character, i still personally consider him one of the best in the series, but man i would not like to be within walking distance of him.

Jun 29th 2020 at 5:59:07 PM

Snape is very much a nasty piece of work, even if a few other HP characters are even worse than him.

I like how he's compared to the incels. They are whiny and self-entitled and often involved in questionable political ideologies. And that is so totally Snape! But he would become a Sadist Teacher to boot...

Even so, I have to admit that some parts of his backstory are touching. But I have to repeat what another poster said: he refused to deal with his traumas in a mature way and took it out on his students instead.

And I can't understand how Harry could name one of his sons after him. But I hear that Al was a Slytherin and had a bad relationship with his father. Which is very fitting based on whom he was named after.

Edited by Kickisan on Jun 29th 2020 at 1:07:52 PM

M84 YOU HATE TIME TRAVEL from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
YOU HATE TIME TRAVEL
Jun 29th 2020 at 6:48:20 PM

There's also no excuse for the way he made Neville miserable.

Heck, there's a plausible wild mass guess that puts said abuse in a worse light: Snape may be blaming Neville for not being the one Voldemort chose to target instead of Harry.

Disgusted, but not surprised
Jun 29th 2020 at 6:58:28 PM

Poor Neville, indeed. Snape became his freaking boggart!

That's a nice theory though, that Snape had some resentment towards Neville because of the prophecy.

Of course, it is not like his parents still were tortured into insanity or anything (sarcasm mode)...

Edited by Kickisan on Jun 29th 2020 at 1:04:37 PM

Jun 29th 2020 at 7:01:10 PM

[up][up] It pisses me off whenever someone tries to use that to defend Snape's actions towards Neville.

[down] There are fans that stan Voldemort and Bellatrix, along with the fact they have no problem "siding" with the Deatheaters.

Edited by Cross on Jun 29th 2020 at 10:07:09 AM

HeraldAlberich from Ohio Relationship Status: Gonna take a lot to drag me away from you
Jun 29th 2020 at 7:01:49 PM

I mean, there's that bit about its founder running around with the setting's equivalent of the swastika as a fashion accessory.

More like, he used the symbol forgetting or not caring that the Nazi changed its meaning forever and nearly caused a fist fight with the guy from Poland.

That's a bit of a stretch, though, right? The Nazis perverted the swastika by splashing it all over their flags and buildings and war machines. Grindelwald used the Hallows mark for its intended purpose (searching for others who know the legend) by carving it on one wall as a student, long before he was a conquering dark lord, and by all accounts never claimed it as his own symbol publicly. The only people who associate it with him are graduates of one wizarding school in Eastern Europe. Xenophilius can hardly be expected to come in for condemnation for also wearing it in its original meaning and intent.

Heck, HP fans in real life wear the Hallows mark on t-shirts and earrings and tattoos, and we don't yell at them for siding with the wizard fascists.

RJ-19-CLOVIS-93 from Australia
Jun 29th 2020 at 8:10:56 PM

@ Redhunter: The Virgin Snape vs the Chad James. Seriously, the only thing separating Snape from being an incel is the fact he's not misogynist...he hates male and female students equally

Representing New Zealand, TV Tropes addict

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