Harry Potter

@weasleymum: Someone posted a nice theory about that on this website:

He hates Neville because if Voldemort had chosen to kill Neville instead of Harry, Neville would have become the Chosen One and Lily would still be alive. Every time Snape sees Neville, he is reminded of that fact, and treats Neville like shit for it.

edited 16th Feb '10 3:55:48 PM by jtmmachine

James— tough to say because he was never a character. I would say yes, but it took him a while, and only if you don't look too hard at his motives.

School years— nobody's role model. Apparently spent most of his time flaunting and further inflating his own ego at the expense of others. Deflated eventually for Lily, but even before then saved Snape's life. Only questionably heroic, depending on which in-canon argument you buy.

After that, definite hero. His need to do dangerous things/ defy authority/ opression/ Dark Arts was channeled against Voldemort and his followers rather than against his classmates, and you can guess ("defied him three times" and based on the people who knew him's opinions of him) that he was pretty good at it. Assuming that Harry is our baseline for "Hero" here, while Harry was fundamentally kinder/ more empathetic than his dad, I think they were both driven by the same heroic righteousness, and arguably the same restlessness. Harry was always shown as having things pressed on him from all sides, but he didn't *need* to do most of it, beyond that he wouldn't be able to live with himself if he didn't. I assume James shared this quality, but didn't have anything productive to channel it into until he graduated.

In conclusion yes, he was a Hero once he found a cause.

What criteria are you using to define "hero"? I assume you aren't using Zoe's definition ("Don't be a hero, son. A hero is someone who gets other people killed. You can look it up later").

edited 16th Feb '10 4:51:44 PM by Taelor

Deflated eventually for Lily

Why do we always assume that when we're given no evidence of it? I don't know- maybe it's because I'm so used to seeing All Girls Want Bad Boys, and the requisite trope-I-don't-think-we-have of "bad boy 'reforms' and gets the straight-laced girl in the end" (and, of course, I'm annoyed by both of them) but it's always struck me as equally plausible that Lily fell into one of those plots and that James never actually stopped being a jerk. It's not exactly unheard for bad people to do good things with their lives.

Likewise, it's never been made clear what exactly Voldemort was rebelling against- I mean, we know he's evil by the end, but for all we know the conflict arose from his realizing that the Ministry of Magic was run by a bunch of incompetent pompous buffoons...who rigged elections so he couldn't win! In which case, the whole crisis could have been averted if there were any schools in the Harry Potter universe that taught the finer points of Public Administration, Political Science, or Psychology.

I'm gonna have to say, James =/= Hero

sure, we're told he was in the Order, but were we ever given examples of something he specifically did?

Why do we always assume that when we're given no evidence of it? I don't know- maybe it's because I'm so used to seeing All Girls Want Bad Boys, and the requisite trope-I-don't-think-we-have of "bad boy 'reforms' and gets the straight-laced girl in the end" (and, of course, I'm annoyed by both of them) but it's always struck me as equally plausible that Lily fell into one of those plots and that James never actually stopped being a jerk. It's not exactly unheard for bad people to do good things with their lives.

Well, we do have by Sirius' word (which isn't all that reliable) and Lupin's word (which is) that they only went out after James stopped being an asshole.

edited 16th Feb '10 5:06:15 PM by KnownUnknown

@Some Guy: James Potter— a hero in the same sense that any other dedicated Order of the Phoenix member is a hero. We don't know exactly what he and Lily did when they "defied Voldemort three times" (because it doesn't really matter) but they were doing their damnedest to stop the bad guy who was killing everybody. Were the Longbottoms heros? Was Madeye Moody a hero? Does it matter? IMHO, only Harry is really a hero in a literary sense— it's his journey. Was James one of the Good Guys? Well, yeah. Re: "deflated eventually for Lily": it's not assumed, it's canon. Lupin tells Harry this after Harry confronts him about the Pensieve vision. JKR is on record as emphatically disliking the "all girls want bad boys" concept.

@Jtmmachine: Thank you, that makes perfect sense. I knew there had to be some twisted reason behind the Neville thing, I just wasn't thinking.

edited 16th Feb '10 5:15:52 PM by Weasleymum

@Some Guy, I thought it was pretty clear that Voldemort was rebelling against equality and for the rise of aristocracy. He wanted to build a more definite class system among wizards. I suppose that might have just been a method and not his true purpose but considering he murdered three people before he even left school for no reason other than a grudge against his father and to split his soul, I doubt he was redeemable.

edited 16th Feb '10 6:20:43 PM by WordCasters

Ooh, is this the story about gardeners?

Voldemort believed that Muggles/ the masquerade were an unnecessary hindrance to the wizarding community. He wanted to rule the world of wizards, and he wanted to live forever. This is, interestingly enough, almost exactly what Dumbledore wanted when he was an impressionable lad, but he didn't want to kill the muggles, just rule them. He obviously thought better of it eventually.

You know, those don't necessarily sound like evil goals in and of themselves. If Voldemort wants to be Prime Minister of the wizards, why shouldn't he? I mean, aside from the fact that Harry Potter uses a Genericist Government. If he wants to live forever, why doesn't he just study the magical science behind it? Nobody seems to care that whatshisname from the first book and his wife were living forever.

edited 16th Feb '10 7:29:57 PM by SomeGuy

He didn't want to be prime minister of the wizards, though. He wanted to be the Dark Lord of all wizards, and he wanted to kill everyone else. I think you're just trying to be difficult at this point. -.-

Oh, and living forever, yeah, he studied it. And when he found out that he had to kill people and destroy his immortal soul to achieve it he said something akin to "Oh, is that all?" and had at it.

edited 16th Feb '10 7:52:46 PM by DaeBrayk

You know, correct me if I'm wrong, but Voldemort isn't that old, right? Surely at some point in his pre-Dark Lord life he must have learned about the existence of the philosopher's stone, even if only from reading a trading card that was bundled with a jelly bean or something. Why bother with the horcruxes in the first place? Why didn't he just throw himself into studying alchemy so he could make his own philosopher's stone?

For that matter, couldn't he become Dark Lord by trying to rise through the political ranks, then coming up with an absurd justification to get the Ministry of Magic to declare him emergency emperor? He's certainly charismatic enough to pull it off. When you think about it, his insistence on killing random people right away was a pretty dumb move- the only reason he's not stopped by the end of the sixth book is because the Ministry's even dumber than he is!

I think you're just trying to be difficult at this point.

Shhh, you'll ruin the fun.

The philosopher's stone doesn't prevent death, it just extends life. It's a subtle difference but apparently it mattered to Voldermort, he didn't want to live forever; he was just afraid to die. The horcruxes suited his purpose better. From my understanding he was working on a legitimate rise to power before the first war for at least long enough to gather a devoted following without much intervention from the Ministry. Lord Voldemort was a powerful and dangerous wizard but most of the damage in his terrorist campaign was done by his Death Eaters. Until he had gathered the Death Eaters much of his cruelty was done in secret, when he started to come out in full force against the ministry some of his supporters shied away from his methods (i.e. The Blacks). If he had been an open terrorist before gathering the Death Eaters I think the Ministry would have had an easier time catching him.

First, yes, Harry lives in an Idiot Universe. Second, we must acknowledge the unintentional one-line hand-wave to which all hardcore potterfans must refer during discussions of this kind—

"Most wizards haven't got an ounce of logic."

Every character does something unspeakably stupid at at least one point in the series, especially the ones who are supposed to be smart (Hermione might be the exception, here).

Oh, hey, speaking of which, I thought of a new "holy crap that was idiotic" moment. Fourth book, quidditch world cup, Barty Crouch Jr. He's got a wand and control of his own mind for the first time in over a decade, there's general chaos, and he's not half bad at magic. What does he do? He fires off a goddamn beacon. He stands there and screams the equivilent of "Hey, dad, guess what? I'm escaping!" and, surprise surprise, the ministry pops up and stuns his sorry psychotic ass. This is stupid in-universe for obvious reasons, but out of universe it hurts even more.

The fourth book had gaping plot holes in it that Rowling didn't know how to fix. This is understandable, in a series that size. The problem is that when Barty did something that stupid, Rowling then had to triple the ridiculous to make up for it. Remember that Bertha Jorkins nonsense, that involved the only person who knew Barty was alive just happening to stumble across the one person in contact with Voldemort, who just happened to drag her off in case she might have a plot device in her brain?

So then, they go off and spring Barty jr. from Barty sr's place, and suddenly Barty Jr. is smart enough and competent enough to convincingly impersonate one of Albus Bloody Dumbledore's oldest friends, hold two people under the imperius curse, both of whom are trained against dark wizards, and one of whom is the greatest auror of all time, (who Barty-with-the-magical-experience-of-a-nineteen-year-old had absolutely no trouble stuffing away in a trunk) and meanwhile he's stealing shit on a monthly basis right out from under the long, hooked nose of the greatest occlumense/leglimense alive and brewing polyjuice potion with it, and just, like, as a bonus, he became one of Harry's favorite teachers.

He did all that, by the by, because he needed Harry to touch a portkey, but I'm sure we're all familiar with the "Harry Potter and his Enchanted Left Sock" draft of the book, which was rejected fairly early on.

Now, I do not mind Barty Crouch Jr. being an absolute beast. In fact, I rather like the character because of it. I do mind that he is introduced with the aforementioned stupidity, and then unceremoniously dropped out of existence shortly after the end of his last scene, (which he spent drugged up on Explaintheploticaserum), without so much as a passing mention of the fact that every one of them had their asses handed to them by him.

Oh, hey, speaking of which, I thought of a new "holy crap that was idiotic" moment. Fourth book, quidditch world cup, Barty Crouch Jr. He's got a wand and control of his own mind for the first time in over a decade, there's general chaos, and he's not half bad at magic. What does he do? He fires off a goddamn beacon. He stands there and screams the equivilent of "Hey, dad, guess what? I'm escaping!" and, surprise surprise, the ministry pops up and stuns his sorry psychotic ass. This is stupid in-universe for obvious reasons, but out of universe it hurts even more.

the only justification I can think of is Barty was just so overwhelmed at having freedom for the first time in over a decade

Him being told by Voldy to infiltrate Hogwarts went to his head. He was proud of being a Death Eater; I don't see why he wouldn't want to flaunt it either.

I also agree. I would think that after having been locked up for so long, and the fact his mental state didn't seem that great before going there, it seems somewhat plausible that he would do something that would say "See bitches? I'm free and there's more to come!!"

Don't you guys remember anything? He shot up the dark mark to teach the death eaters a lesson, since they had done absolutely squat to find voldemort, and had wiggled out of prison by denying any conections to him. Their worst fear was him returning, and they paniced at the marks appearence.

^True

For the why Voldemort used Horcruxes instead of a Philosopher's Stone, I think it was because he didn't want just Immortality, he wanted to be invincible.

For what I know while the Philosopher's Stone stops your aging it doesn't make you invulnerable to damage, so if he used the Philosopher's Stone and then fell down the stairs, or got into a duel and lost he would still die.

Instead with the Horcruxes he ensured that no matter what happened to him he would still live. Just like it was said previously he didn't want to be immortal he was just afraid to die.

edited 28th Feb '10 3:31:53 PM by daltar

^it's "Invulnerable"

Favorite Character: Hagrid

Favorite Class: Botany

Favorite Book: Order of the Phoenix

House: Probably Slytherin (We're so misunderstood...)

edited 28th Feb '10 3:23:22 PM by Roman

I read Harry Potter when I was too young. Too young to know how to hate a book, but also too young to know how to love a book and its characters regardless of flaws. In the end I am just...satisfied and content. It's most likely the oddest relationship I have with a book.

Favorite Class: Botany

• Herbology