Fallout: New Vegas

Of course even then, Autumn was just a standard dictator and had no intention of carrying out genocide.

Of course, the fact the Enclave's AI, which presumably was created with the purest ideals of the Enclave, wanted to kill everybody, probably speaks to what their main goals were.

As for the BOS, I love hearing our two genius dictators pick them apart:

They're right but also props to the writers for showing how our two genius dictators have glaring blindspots that we can see. Caesar talking about the worst impulses in a backwards tribe and House criticizing emotionally unstable techno fetishists are both good lols.

Also, now I think on it, Veronica is basically the Legion companion for the BOS insofar as she's the one person in the world who actaully likes them. The NV BOS is presented just as black as the Legion, I'd say. They're just smaller potatoes.

FO 4's Brotherhood is just a different kind of bad. But it's a believable, well-written bad. Lyons becoming who he did and taking the BOS the route he did was well-explained. Similarly, the BOS becoming fascist after his death also makes sense.

Edited by Nikkolas on Oct 25th 2020 at 9:05:04 AM

Eh. That was kind of part of what I was saying about the Bethesda games' pendulum. I think 2's version of the Enclave is bad enough without making them into generic stormtroopers with their officers wearing literal Nazi uniforms. But then in 4 you've got Maxwell in this pilot ace jacket that smacks of empire. It's not subtle, is what I'm saying. I think it leads people to miss the forest for the trees, a bit. The bad guys are not always going to dress like bad guys for your convenience, nor are they going to be quite as over-the-top in the other direction as President Eden. I'd just rather there was a little more left in the text, between the lines, I suppose. Make me work for it a little.

I agree it makes sense as shown, and I do think the Brotherhood is well-written compared to the Institute. But it does feel a bit like Bethesda getting into a bit of a snit over people liking Obsidian's darkly grey Brotherhood more than their straightforward knights in shining armour. It worked out relatively well, but it does still feel a bit forced to me. But it's done and I don't dislike the end result.

The Mojave BOS aren't as black as the Legion just because they do have a few members, like Veronica, who aren't really that bad. They don't mean to be bad, they've just internalized the wrong lessons, and been left with some bad leaders, particularly after so long under Elders like Elijah.

I don't necessarily think the BOS are worth saving, and they do definitely need to clean house (not that House) in a big way, but they're definitely well on their way to *becoming* just as bad as the Legion.

Edited by Unsung on Oct 26th 2020 at 7:33:52 AM

OTOH, maybe the Enclave shouldn't be subtle. These are a faction that overall thinks genocide is the way to go.

Well I meant more that nobody likes the Brotherhood just like nobody likes the Legion, I wasn't talking morals.

And the FO 4 Brotherhood is basically the Legion. I've said it before but no idea why the Legion and Institute get compared when the Legion's obvious parallel is the expansionist empire led by a cult of personality.

It's just, you put shiny power armor on people and don't have them kill folks by nailing them to crosses and suddenly you're not so bad.

Also random note: my crude Google Fu has told me that the whole Jesus nailed to a cross type of crucifixion was actually rare. Mostly they just strapped you up and then you died because... I dunno. I think Caesar mainly did the second kind, no nails. Vulpes threatens to lash you but Ulysses later makes an awesome line that is something like "a nail through the head like a gift from Caesar." So I dunno.

Edited by Nikkolas on Oct 25th 2020 at 9:34:38 AM

I don't think Frank Horrigan was all that subtle, either. I'm just saying that there are evils other than Nazis, and Nazis that don't look like Nazis. But the better word here is probably nuance. There were some points about the banality of evil and turning into the bad guy without realizing it (living long enough to see yourself become the villain, yes, that tired old saw of our time) that got a bit lost in Bethesda's version(s), in my opinion. That's all. I don't want the Enclave or FO 4 Brotherhood portrayed more sympathetically, or anything. I just want to make sure the folks who never wore a uniform don't get off scot-free.

Ah, then pretty much, yeah, I would agree. People will forgive a lot if you wear power armor, in-universe and out. So that's probably a fair point about people liking the Mojave Brotherhood better just because they're not all wearing football pads.

Most of the crucifixions in-game seem to be of the lashed-to-the-cross-and-left-to-die-of-exposure type, presumably because Sawyer and Caesar both did their research too. You can actually untie a few NCR troopers in Nelson who aren't too far gone, and they run off back to Forlorn Hope.

Edited by Unsung on Oct 26th 2020 at 7:15:44 AM

To be fair, 3's BOS is explicitly an anomaly when compared to earlier and then later instances of those. The Brotherhood was always a bunch of technoassholes - just like the Enclave they descended from the defunct US military, but had different priorities in mind - that just so happened to be a convenient ally against bigger baddies. (The Master/Enclave/Calculator) The Brotherhood Outcasts act more in line with how a typical BOS chapter would act.

Well the Enclave in Fallout 2 had the clever idea of having the Americans be the Nazis rather than the Germans or scary Europeans. It was fairly decent satire then.

Well, its been a while since I played, but I've been meaning to get back into this series for some time and my current spout of insomnia has given me a good excuse, so... I've been replaying New Vegas. Its been a pretty fun ride so far, though the game is even more crash-happy than I recall it being on previous playthroughs, even with some modding to try and help.

I'm already pretty far into the game, going for a House playthrough. Currently I'm working on going through the DL Cs before picking up the main quest again and... hoo boy, I forgot how much of a mixed bag they were. I freaking love Old World Blues in all its B-movie sci-fi dungeon crawling glory, but the other three... mixed bag. Dead Money's got atmosphere and character in spades but has awful gameplay full of Fake Difficulty, Honest Hearts has some neat moments and gorgeous scenery but a kinda annoying map and characters (Joshua Graham aside), and Lonesome Road's story hinges on you finding Ulysses compelling and interesting, which is a problem for me since I think he's insufferable and overhyped by the narrative. x3

'd.

Fallout 4 New Vegas looks pretty crazy.

Edited by FOFD on Oct 26th 2020 at 5:57:10 AM

Am I the only one to just snipe him with an antimat rifle loaded with explosives as soon as i see him

Who, Vulpes? These days I go to town the grenade rifle you get from the merc pack. Even on my first, Good Natured run I had to start shooting just to see if I could win, even if I reloaded afterwards.

I suppose that's the difference, yeah. Fallout 3's Enclave feel like straight-ahead baddies, while 2's still have some satire left in them. The Hidden Valley BOS are deeply flawed, but even their fanatics feel the need to trot out their justifications. They have their reasons as well as their doubts. Just feels a bit more examined, not as simplified. To me.

Not Vulpes. The Lonely Roads guy. Sleeveless duster guy.

I have no weapons at Nipton time. None whatsoever. I have maybe a cowboy repeater and a few pistols. All in desperate need of repair and with barely any ammo. I tend to find a nearby balcony and throw grenades at Vulpes.

Edited by blkwhtrbbt on Oct 26th 2020 at 10:18:54 AM

Ahh. Ulysses. Yeah, I can understand that. I talked him down that first run, but I talked down everyone.

Lot of running away during that Vulpes fight the first time, because no companions. Lots of dynamite and leg shots.

Edited by Unsung on Oct 26th 2020 at 8:26:22 AM

I'm really glad Fallout never had the Master return in some way since that's an over used trope

I agree, that'd be lame. The way the former Unity supermutants have moved on, many of them trying to integrate back into society, that's more interesting to me. And the way you can get the Master to see he was wrong and why, I wouldn't want to reverse that, either.

Would kind of like to see Harold show up again, though.

The ultimate flaw with the Legion and House is that they are reliant in there leaders. Like lets say the NCR president dies then his Veep takes up the role of and then if he dies the guy under him and so on and so forth. If caesar dies Lanius becomes leader. Lanius is like Alexander the great: Excellent military leader horrible statesman and after he dies the legion would likely fragment like A Lexander's empire. Mr House is more or less immortal due to his life support but also frail and if someone breaches his defenses he's screwed.

I'm probably also going to talk Ulysses down, though I'm not quite sure how to justify it in-character for my Courier just yet, since I'm at least trying to do a bit more roleplaying this run-through. Maybe her viewing him as useful as a check against the Tunnelers and Marked Men while she and House focus on the Mojave?

Out of universe, my big problem is just that he's kind of a dull, pretentious Author Avatar whose buildup throughout the DL Cs feels rather forced at times. It frankly feels to me like he just exists to be a contrarian towards your chosen faction and to serve as an outlet for Chris Avellone to grouse about Fallout not just being people picking over barren wastelands anymore. And if I wanted to play the "Chris Avellone lectures you about the in-game universe" experience, I'd have gotten Knights of the Old Republic II.

take a shot every time you hear the words bull and bear in the dlc. four shots if theyre said in the same sentence

Do not do this. The struggle may wound or even kill you.

But yeah, that's pretty much exactly what Ulysses is, by Chris Avellone's own admission. I think there's the germ of something interesting amid all the text/voiceover, but it feels pretty underdone and rambling as it is. Needed more editing. Though I did like KOTOR 2 more than many, so it might never have worked for you.

I think Old World Blues and Dead Money say most of what needs to be said about the theme of leaving the hardscrabble Scavenger World setting behind in slightly more eloquent terms — mechanical terms, at the very least. Ulysses still interests me as a character, I do wish we could've seen what he would've been like as a main game companion, but I don't really like Lonesome Road. Apart from the stuff with ED-E.

Edited by Unsung on Oct 26th 2020 at 9:25:35 AM

@Zeldalover

Well, that is the perennial problem with autocracy. Even with a benevolent despot they will die eventually and then maybe you get somebody who isn't so good or wise.

You're supposed to pop out kids to fix this problem but looks like neither Ed nor Rob were interested in that.

Also House has the added problem of, while he might be a dictator, his subordinates have a bad habit of betraying him. No man, no matter how capable, can do everything on his own and that goes double for House who is a corpse-man and needs functioning humans to do stuff for him.

Not quite sure how siring kids is supposed to "fix" the problem when the very empire the Legion is trying to emulate is the only proof anyone needs to know that children don't exactly inherit the same worldview as their parents.

I haven't played Kotor II, so I can't really judge one way or the other. I've heard that Kreia is a lot better-written than Ulysses, largely because like you pointed out she has the benefit of being a main story companion instead of only appearing in-person in one expansion, but I can't really offer an opinion on it. x3

I'll be honest and say that the main draw of Old World Blues for me wasn't even the thematic stuff (though it is pretty solid). I just absolutely adored the dungeon-crawler gameplay, where you slowly uncover the facility and fight a bunch of souped-up boss monsters to get awesome treasure and equipment, and slowly built up your home base.

As a side note on the topic of Old World Blues, because I'm an idiot I never realized that the picture of them in the expansion's intro[1] actually was them, and not just a stock image (apparently its Data, 0, Borous, Klein, 8, and Mobius from left to right). I've kinda been low-key thinking about that and kicking myself for not realizing it earlier since replaying the expansion x3

Admittedly I don't know much about Roman history but I would think having an heir is at least supposed to be a solution to who rules when I die and also helps keep your dynasty and overarching empire alive and functioning.

Doesn't always work out that way - Alexander was mentioned and I sure as shit know having kids didn't work for him. But an attempt at continuity would be better than nothing.

Ahh, don't feel bad. I don't think I ever noticed that the lobotomites' masks are a reference to a loading screen from the first game. Old World Blues is overflowing with references, and shows there *is* still room for that kind of wackiness in Fallout, despite the doubts expressed in Lonesome Road. I actually had a pretty good time with Nuka-World, for that matter.

I was planning to give Fallout 4 another shot once I was done with my NV replay, thinking of Nuka World. That's gonna be... interesting. I'll be completely honest and say I have never been able to get to the part where you teleport to the Institute in that game. I kinda just always got bored and fell off it before that point. Mostly since I just have a hard time rooting for any of the factions compared to NV, where serious arguments could be made for all of them except the Legion. The companions (except for Nick Valentine) also mostly felt less interesting too from what I can remember. x3