Type-Moon: Fate/stay night, Tsukihime, and Kara no Kyoukai discussion

I still think the core concept of a homunculus going from an untainted existence and ignorant of humanity as a whole only to be let out into the world and succumb to greed and other vices, yet still living all the same is an interesting concept and ehh at least the Fafnir thing kinda sorta did that if you squint.

Also my favorite thing about the Apoc knockoff Grail Wars is how Hassan was too op plz nerf and how Pseudo Grail Wars in Greece were just trying to either summon Herc or summoning counterpicks to Herc.

oh, that makes sense. neat, i guess.

jeanne vaguely mentions something similar to that happening where she states that humans will stop progressing and stop feeling even joy eventually

that argument isnt ever really expanded upon because amakusa then says "no they totally will" and jeanne blows herself up

honestly, now that i think about it a way cooler idea would have been if Sieg became the main bad guy of the show, where he becomes obsessed with revenge against Darnic and the whole family for the mistreatment of both himself and homunculi, and he ultimately decides that humanity isn't worth saving after seeing Jack's true nature or whatever.

then Jeanne has the conflict of needing to stop the very person she swore to save.

probably definitely wouldn't work in apocrypha as-is, but i do love Fallen Hero-esque stories.

it also amazes me at how little would need to be changed for Astolfo to be Sieg's main love interest and still keep every single romantic moment that was penciled in, but with Astolfo instead.

Edited by EpicBleye on Feb 13th 2021 at 4:45:38 AM

Honestly, the pruning thing sounds really dumb if you were to try to bring it up in a philosophical argument. Especially if the work really has nothing else to do with it.

x3 God imagine if they summon Buddist Herc, the guardian of Buddha.

x2 It still irks me that a game that came out after Apocrypha is the blasted thing that explains exactly what is wrong with Amakusa's goal, even if we just apply Extella and not FGO. Because Jeanne blows herself up.

Yeah it does sound stupid, but thats what happens when metaphysics override philosophies.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Feb 13th 2021 at 1:45:26 AM

tbh the argument with the core conflict bugs me because Jeanne's oh so compelling reason comes off to me as "stop. that's illegal. you probably shouldn't do that." and vague hypotheticals

compelling arguments: joy and pain are both human experiences, and you need one to understand the other and fully experience what it means to be human. you need conflict in order to grow and better understand other people. you can't really save humanity if they're no longer human. forcibly poofing everyone is kinda fucked up if you think about it.

not a compelling arugument: you cant do that, we're not supposed to :///

Edited by EpicBleye on Feb 13th 2021 at 4:53:33 AM

How the fuck do knockoff grail wars work?

So essentially Jeanne is kind of a fuckwit.

Edited by slimcoder on Feb 13th 2021 at 2:01:18 AM

Because when it straight makes up things it's usually given some source or internal explanation? Invisible Air is attributed to Merlin. Gilles de Rais gets it from Prelati, who claimed he could summon demons. Is it good or not? Either way, it is explained.

In contrast to something that is very clearly, in all sources, something noteworthy for being some sort of tiered garden with trees and and plants etc. Something other stories say was ostensibly created because a King's wife missed greenery and mountains.

No explanation. No hinting. Not even, as far as I'm aware, a reference to the source that said the gardens were on top of a citadel. Absolutely nothing is said about why the hell it's a flying laser castle with a bunch of irrelevant magical effects. It's just left as a big, random unanswered question.

I want to know what leaked details supposedly let you start Grail wars. This one took a unique homunculus and the involvement of Zelretch to start, the hell is being copied? Especially as it could only normally build up enough power every fifty years.

Edited by RainehDaze on Feb 13th 2021 at 10:16:08 AM

1. Find a place with leylines
2. Use Darnic's revealed process to make and plug in a Grail of varying quality
3. Summon Servants to power Grail
4. ????
5. Grail time hypothetically

also these knockoff wars can only have five Servants at max.

As usual, I'm left with more questions than answers.

(Including why everyone in the Apo timeline suddenly became obsessed with Grail wars because of incomplete instructions when so few people cared about the working Fuyuki grail. Is it divergent because someone stuck hallucinogens in the water? Is this why everything is so weird there?)

Edited by RainehDaze on Feb 13th 2021 at 10:25:37 AM

The grail war as it ended up in Fate was a series of trial and errors in the first place, to make a knock off you attempt the same general steps, but without a greater grail which will make the entire ritual weaker. Hence why strange fake attempted to by pass all of that by using the initial summoning as a catalyst to kick start the real war, but then watcher got summoned, fake rider spread the plague, and it all went wild from there.

Oh yeah Bleye, did you play the Apocrypha event? It's a very nice sort of epilogue story for Apocrypha itself with some great character interactions

Edited by Mami on Feb 13th 2021 at 11:30:19 AM

Apoc mage: damn millenial mages thinking they can get a shortcut to the root with a half-assed ritual

i did! i don't remember it very well and kinda skimmed through it because I had no attachment to any of the characters, but i might reread through it or just pay close attention to the rerun.

You could just read it in my room though? Rather than wait a year for the rerun,

I really don't see the Hanging Gardens as that bizarre by Fate standards. Maybe it's hindsight?

Elizabeth turns her castle into speakers and she's younger than Semi.

key word: turns it into. Because she's idol obsessed. Why are gardens a flying laser castle. Operative word: why.

x4 The fun part being that without the original setup and seven Servants summoned it's not even enough for wish granting. Not that you could do that either without the original even if you had six dead ones.

Edited by RainehDaze on Feb 13th 2021 at 10:33:14 AM

Cause she can turn it into that. Why not.

Because it has nothing to do with her or the gardens, duh.

It's fully detailed about how she shouldn't have it as an NP and how useless it is normally and the requirements to make it. And then nothing about why it's that.

This is not a desire for a grand uniquely detailed explanation. It's one where there's at least the same effort basically every other addition has gotten: some reason in universe for it. The continuing lack indicates that, no, there isn't one. It just IS because justifying your plot is too difficult.

Edited by RainehDaze on Feb 13th 2021 at 10:46:05 AM

Huh so I can summon Herc as a Kamen Rider or Power Ranger then?

If you can persuade the Argonauts to be a sentai team.

I dunno, chromosomes? What does it have to do with anything?

Because taking liberties with history and myth for dramatic effect has been a thing in Fate from the very start.

The Hanging Gardens are a flying laser castle because it's cooler that way.

And it would be fine if they just left it at "Semiramis had a flying fortress of doom", because yeah sure, of course she had it.

But they couldn't resist trying to be too clever for their own good with the explanation no one really asked for, and all just to explain why Amakusa is tanned.

I want to know what was Urobuchi's thought progress when he was designing Spartacus.