Jupiterian Local
On the subject of healing, I imagine it's connected to Identity. Your Identity essentially represents your "base state" and stormlight healing tries to return you to that state. I believe it's mentioned during Edgedancer that Regrowth doesn't affect people who are developmentally delayed from birth, but it can correct mental issues caused by traumatic brain injuries, which would fit with that idea. Of course, it does raise questions about what would happen if you healed someone while they were filling an Identity metalmind....
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Questioner:
I notice that stormlight is a bit volatile in how well it heals or who it heals. Because it seems like Renarin's eyesight would have been a long term problem, kinda like Rysn's legs and Lopen's arm. But Lopen's arm got healed, Rysn's legs didn't and Kaladin's scars didn't. So I didn't know if there was a reason for those things.
Brandon Sanderson:
So stormlight healing, there's a couple things that have to be considered. But in reference to what you're saying, the person's perception of themselves is a huge part of it. The way healing works in the cosmere is, you've got the three versions of yourself. You've got the Physical version, the Cognitive version, and the Spiritual version, And a lot of stormlight is taking your Physical version and matching it to the Spiritual version which is your Ideal self. But it has to be filtered through the lens of your mind.
I almost always—probably should say always—am using it to reinforce some sort of character attribute. The fact that Lopen never saw himself, even though he only had one arm, as being disabled, as a big influence, versus whether Kaladin deserves his brands or not. Does that makes sense? And those are two very different things that influence how the healing works. And you will see that as a metaphor and theme, if you watch what heals and what doesn't.
https://wob.coppermind.net/events/331/#e9441
edited 5th Apr '18 7:36:11 AM by Samaldin
Oathbringer chapter 11 reread up. Dalinar's second flashback, at the Rift.
Conquerors generally have pretty stupid reasons for conquering, but I agree that it would be very Alethi to just keep on conquering because you have nothing better to do with your time.
- With those keen, pale green eyes, he'd always seemed to know so much. Growing up, Dalinar had simply assumed that his brother would always be right in whatever he said or did. Aging hadn't much changed his opinion of the man.
P: The admiration for his older brother is definitely to be expected, especially at Dalinar's age, as you say, Alice. I found it sad, because Dalinar, already so misled by Odium and the Thrill at this point, has so much misplaced admiration for his brother.
Did Dalinar ever find out how screwed up Gavilar had become? When he was interrogating Rlain, did Rlain explain that Gavilar tried to start the Desolation, and that's why they killed him? I don't think so, but I'm not sure.
A: Seems kind of odd, on first thought, but there is some valid rationale for it. For one thing, Dalinar is the guy who goes charging ahead, so he's a lot more likely to get to the Shardbearers before the more cautious Sadeas. (I think that's how he obtains the Shards he gives Gavilar that eventually go to Elhokar, right?) And then once they get the kingdom gig mostly sorted out, Sadeas stays in Kholinar playing politics, while Dalinar goes out and fights the battles. So after while, Sadeas lost his chance until they started the Vengeance Pact and went after the Parshendi.
I know we brought this up here, so I like the note that Sadeas' fighting style makes him unlikely to be in a position to get a Blade.
Just realized that Ruin and Odium are actually foils to each other. to wit:
While both employ prophecy, have empowered minions, and notably managed to kill the Shard they were sharing a territory with who opposed them, both differ wildly on implementation, with Odium primarily using methods based on the Cognitive Realm and Ruin being mostly based on the Physical realm.
- Ruin's own use of prophecy mainly composed of altering existing prophecies to serve his ends, sometimes moment by moment to fit the situation. Odium is noted to be very good at making his own prophecies and sees very far into the future, to the point that predicting the future is actively taboo on Roshar due to how closely it is tied to ruin. They don't even play gambling games that rely on guess the future result of, say dice rolls, because that smacks too much of prophecy, instead playing variants where they guess the numbers after dice have been rolled, since that makes it a past event.
- In appearance, Odium tends towards gold and white colors, and appears as a gold and/or white clad member of the species he is appearing to. Ruin tends toward black and dark gray, and appears as someone the viewer knows. Odium tries to make the person he is talking to trust and surrender to him with a calming, Affably Evil demeanor while Ruin takes advantage of already-established trust and subverts it to his own ends.
- Both are a source of Investiture and use their Investiture to power and physically alter certain minions. In this, they are actually very alike, both utilizing corrupted versions of other Shards' Investiture, with many of their minions undergoing noticeable physical changes. With Odium, however, most of these changes are natural parts of his minions biology stemming from changes to their spiritual or Cognitive aspects that trickle down to the Physical Realm. Ruin actively alters and mutilates his minions in the Physical Realm with stolen bits of Spiritual data to alter and add to their Cognitive and Spiritual parts.
- Speaking of minions, they're even opposed when it comes to their minions' sanity. Odium values sane, physically whole minions because they can act rationally, follow orders, and have sufficient initiative to do what he wants done. Ruin goes for insane minions, whether originally like that or induced to be so from contact with him, because they're easier to control with spikes and won't question doing what a voice in their head tells them to do. Notably, Odium's insane minions tend to be harmless and sit around doing nothing, while capable of fighting if ordered. Ruin's minions are always violently insane, and without his direct control rampage wildly.
- Both utilize forms of mind control. Odium does it by implanting Physical beings with spren/Cognitive beings aligned to him, and Ruin does it by spiking them with Hemulurgical spikes, physically opening them up to his Cognitive tampering and control. Notably, all of Ruin's forces were in the Physical realm, with him being the only Cognitive presence, while Odium, while having a sizeable force on the Physical Realm, has a significantly more massive force in the Cognitive Realm, and is also able to corrupt and control Cognitive beings.
- Speaking of mind control, Odium's acts of subversion tend toward deals and pacts that he is completely up front and honest about, and will actually go through with in both spirit and letter. This allows him to take control of populations and essentially conscript whole peoples to his side by subverting their leaders, with eventual trickle down effects. Ruin, however, plays ALL sides. The leaders, the mooks, the rebels AND the heroes. By massive and subtle manipulations, everyone is unknowningly on Ruin's side even as they are impelled to try and destroy everyone else, and even when they think they're opposing him.
- Before becoming Shards, Ati, Ruin's holder, was noted as being a good man who was corrupted into being the crazy creep that came to destroy Scardrial, and being very honest about it. Rayse, Odium's holder, has apparently ALWAYS been an evil asshole, yet currently presents himself as a friendly, wise and reltable guy... when he's trying to con you into dealing away EVERYTHING to him.
- Notably, there is also their omnicidal end goals. While Odium primarily wants to destroy the heroes and the peoples of Roshar they're defending because accomplishing this gets him out of a pact that keeps him bound to Roshar so he can finally go and start killing other Shards, Ruin wants to commit omnicide as a means in itself, with the implication that after he's killed everyone on Roshar, he's going to destroy the physical planet itself. While fr Odium it is merely the means to an end, for Ruin it is the end in itself.
I'VE FINALLY REALIZED WHY LIFT DOESN'T AGE!
It's the Stormlight healing! The Nightwatcher gave Lift Stormlight when she was prepubescent, and puberty is one of the BIG flags that you're aging. Since her stormlight heals her body to her self-image of it, and since her self-image includes a desire not to age AND not having undergone the hormonal changes of puberty yet, the Stormlight is essentially preventing her body from undergoing puberty and the associated growth.
BUT, you say, why doesn't this also apply to Shallan, who also attained Radiance at a young age, including Stormlight healing, but is explicitly depicted as having menstrual periods? Because Shalllan is a NORMAL Radiant, dependent on externally-sourced Stormlight. She has periods where she doesn't have Stormlight in her system and is NOT Stormlight healing. Lift, however, is an AWESOME Radiant, meaning she gets her stormlight through food and her fat reserves. Since Lift has never been explicitly skeletal and her profession more or less assures her a regular stream of food, that means she ALWAYS has stormlight in her. as long as she has any food whatsoever in her, any changes caused by her body trying to age biologically are countered by the stormlight, and since they'd be at the cellular level, the amount wouldn't be that large. Hence, Lift, the Awesome Immortal Eternal Loli
I have to object to the term "loli," given its origin. You didn't mean it in a fetishy way, but the internet is full of people who would, you know?
Healing being linked to self-image is a good theory for why her aging is slowed. We saw in Edgedancer that she's starting to age. My guess would be that her increasing responsibility is letting her self-image advance, as well.
Or she has just not been eating enough to power her stormlight since she was traveling.
In the Edgedancer reread, one of the commenters pointed out that malnutrition can delay the advent of menstruation (this actually caused a major problem when we finally started producing enough food that everyone had a healthy amount to eat; girls were suddenly menstruating years before anyone expected). Note that Lift had her first period at the palace, when she was receiving proper meals for the first time in her life.
Jupiterian Local
Yeah, I don't think that Lift actually stopped aging so much as she was in denial. I believe it's been said that her food-into-stormlight thing isn't a normal Edgedancer thing, so it's presumably her boon from the Nightwatcher.
On the subject of Galivar, I'm not sure we know enough about his actual plan to say whether it was a good idea or not. It's unclear both what he was trying to do and what he thought he was trying to do. We don't know what that black sphere actually was, and while Galivar thinks it's related to the Listener gods, we don't know what he thinks those are. There are a lot of options, from the Unmade to the Fused to Odium himself, to something we haven't seen yet.
On the reread, I find that they seem to be rather myopic in terms of moral judgements. Yes, by our standards, conquering your neighbors to reform an ancient empire is horrific. But by Alethi standards, where being the best warrior possible is literally a religious calling, it's not. Sure, you can call out their cultural standards as having terrible consequences, I find it difficult to condemn someone for doing something that their entire culture has taught is right and good for millennia. And both Gavilar and Dalinar eventually do genuinely dedicate themselves to the good of the realm and its people, even if that's not foremost in their mind when they're younger. The "Ugh, look at these terrible people being terrible" reaction seems like a shallow reading, to me.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Gavilar's gemstones looked a lot like what Nergaoul looked like after he was sealed. Combined with Gavilar talking about using a very special gemstone to seal a god, it seems pretty clear that he somehow got his hands on two of the sealed Unmade. We know Ba-Ado-Mishram was sealed, but we don't know about who the other gemstone could be. I will admit it's possible they could just be particularly powerful unbodied Fused, though we don't know enough about them to be sure. Definitely not Odium himself, though. He's far too powerful, and he's already sealed in different ways anyway.
As for the Alethi and their culture, I can see where you're coming from, but it shouldn't really take much to understand that rampant murder is wrong. The soldiers on the field understand it, every nation around them understands it. It's just the common people (who haven't gone to war) and the lighteyes (who are afflicted by the Thrill) who are caught up in the War Is Glorious message. The Alethi obsession with violence is understandable, but it is in no way excusable. Besides, it's not like anyone, in-universe or out, is suggesting punishing the Alethi for all this bloodshed. The books are all about how broken people can still do good.
Jupiterian Local
I'm not even talking about it as a moral judgment thing, I'm talking about it as a literary criticism thing. "Wow, these people sure are assholes by the standards of real-life modern society" isn't an unreasonable point to make, but as part of a commentary on a work of fantasy literature taking place in an entirely different culture, it's a starting point at best. Do they consider themselves moral? Does their society? Is the Blackthorn's reputation among the Alethi people one of a virtuous warrior or a bloodthirsty butcher? How does that attitude differ from the attitude of other Rosharan societies, particularly those farther from the influence of the Thrill? Like I said, "look at those terrible people being terrible" isn't wrong, but it's a shallow reading.
As far as Gavilar, yeah, I didn't mean to suggest that he'd actually sealed Odium or anything, but he may well have thought he had (or was at least working toward that). There's so much uncertainty about who knew what, and how they interpreted that info, that it's hard to say what was really going on in Gavilar's head.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
"Alright this is my level 1 Rogue. Her name is Veil, she has the Urchin background, she grew up on the streets before—"
"Shallan you don't have to make a new character sheet every time you multiclass."
"What?"
Chapter 12 reread up. Dalinar's first attempt at politics.
- "They had stood above the pettiness of world politics."
A: I suspect you're right, although probably a relatively small percentage had to play politics. Dalinar has one disadvantage that the old Knights Radiant didn't: he has to convince the world leaders that there's a threat, that they need to stand together against it, and that the new Knights Radiant really are the good guys. Back when they were facing the Desolations on a regular basis, no one questioned those things.
L: True. But people being people, I'm sure that not everything was peace and lollipops and rainbows on the world political stage.
I hadn't really considered how the old Radiants handled politics. I guess it makes sense that it would be mostly the Bondsmiths. Though apparently the Elsecallers spoke to the spren.
- "Why do they refuse you, Uncle? Do they think perhaps you will try to usurp their thrones?"
A: Oh, totally. Dalinar knows all of that, too, which is why this hurts so much. He swore never to try to take the throne, either from Gavilar or Elhokar. In a quieter time, all he'd have to do is keep Elhokar from doing too many stupid things, and it would be okay. With the Desolation that's been building for 4500 years now upon them, Elhokar's weakness is a luxury the world simply can't afford—and he knows it.
Of course, we later get a brief look at what would have happened if Dalinar had actually, officially usurped Elhokar. The difference between official and unofficial usurpation might not seem like a big deal, but it's the difference between Dalinar being an insane warmonger or not.
- "Perhaps the liar here is me—lying to tell myself I could do this, that I could be a fraction of the man my father was. No, don't interrupt me, Dalinar. Let me have my say. Voidbringers? Ancient cities full of wonder? The Desolations?... Perhaps ... perhaps I'm a fine king. Not extraordinary, but not an abject failure. But in the face of these events, the world needs better than fine."
L: It's like some country saying, "Hey, we made Vlad the Impaler our Emperor! Want to meet with him?" Sure, he may be seen as a hero to his own people, but to the world at large? Not so much.
I do like how this book emphasizes how different everyone else sees Dalinar. It fits very well with his flashbacks.
- Glowing gloryspren orbs burst around Elhokar. He grinned at them. "I only seem to see those when I'm around you, Uncle."
L: It's stated that gloryspren are pretty rare, but they sure seem to show up around Dalinar a lot. I suspect that it's got something to do with what he inspires in people. His very presence inspires people to be greater, to think of themselves as better than they originally had. Hence... gloryspren. It's worth noting that Shallan does a little of this, too... When she does her drawings of people "as they could be," she's inspiring them to be greater, too. So does Kaladin, through more direct methods.
Subspren do seem to appear around Knights more than they otherwise would. There's one point in Shadesmar where Kaladin is just sitting on the ship, and he's surrounded by windspren.
Politics was also probably easier for the old Radiants just because they were a large army with a monopoly on magical powers. They were the proverbial 600 pound gorilla.
There's the thought that the subspren are the larval form of certain Radiant spren. Which... doesn't quite work, because how could the (admitedly cute) ball-heads be larval Stormfathers? Still, baby spren somehow get produced, and the cosmere being mostly physics-compliant as it is, the energy has to come from somewhere.
It might be different for godspren, since as far as we know, they don't reproduce in any form. There are definitely more subspren varieties than true spren varieties, so it can't be that all subspren have the potential to grow into true spren.
Also, what they represent might not be as straightforward as 'honor' or 'lies'. I'm PRETTY sure Cryptics represent all Constant And Repeating Numerical Variables found in nature, things like the so-called Golden Ration, Pi, etc, and his interest in 'lies' is because of the apparent disconnect with empirical physical reality and subjective personal reality.
edited 12th Apr '18 6:06:42 PM by SCMof2814
World's Cutest Direwolf
Mm. The sapient spren can and do flat-out tell you that they're honorspren or liespren or whatever, so whatever nuances there may be I think it's safe do say that they are in fact the spren of those things.
Anyway, I really like this chapter. It's got the beginning of some my favorite plot threads in the book. Elhokar's redemption arc (poor unqualified fuckup deserved better), Taravangian joining up with our heroes (and all that wonderful dramatic irony from the disconnect between our and Dalinar's knowledge of him), and the newly intelligenced parshendi acting like the humans in the cultures they're from. Particularly with the Azish parshendi filing a formal complaint, it helps show that, if Odium and company hadn't intervened to fuck everything up, shit could have been worked out between human and former parshman. It would have been complicated and ugly and not fully resolved in our protagonists' lifetimes - because the parshendi are understandably pissed and the humans take a serious economic hit from the loss of slave labor - but shit could have been worked out. It helps that the standard slavery justifications that this class isn't as capable as us and needs to be taken care of were honestly pretty accurate for parshmen, and so when they suddenly aren't the humans don't have a lot of self-delusion to justify making them slaves again. Plus, most of the governments around are run by basically decent people who aren't as likely to disregard someone's sapience in the name of profit as, say, Sadeas.
They do make a deal about not being able to explain concepts to physical realm equivalents clearly. My theory about Pattern is because a lot of math terminology seems to come up with him. Dividing by zero, for one thing, and his appearance being a 3D mobile fractal. Why would he go with THAT example, of all things? He seems mathy. And besides, this is Brandon. Things are NEVER as simple as he initially presents them to be.
edited 12th Apr '18 8:31:22 PM by SCMof2814
Also, they don't like to be called "liespren..." though actually, they're the only ones I can think of that don't have an X-spren name.
Oathbringer chapter thirteen reread up. Adolin, Shallan, and mating.
A: Exactly. He's so good for her: so willing to love her without condition, and to be a rock for her to lean on. And honestly, I think Adolin is one of those guys who is at his best when someone needs him, so she's good for him too.
I think it helps that Shallan is politically more important than Adolin now. Adolin has never made a big deal of it, but he has been one of the most important people in the world for most of his life. He's not used to being the lower-ranked one in the relationship. That experience seems to be good for him too.
- Adolin didn't even have the decency to blush at finding her practically naked.
A: Well, for what it's worth, Shallan is Veden rather than Alethi, and I think they have stricter views on such things. Still, I had just assumed that since Adolin never seemed to avoid offending every girl within a week or two of beginning their courtship, he'd never gotten to that point.
Sanderson generally avoids discussing sex, so it's hard to know for sure about this. On the one hand, chaperone. On the other hand, no one blinked at any of the brothels in the warcamps. It's possible that, like medieval England, Alethkar is hypocritical in matters of sex; men are socially allowed to sleep around, but women have to remain pure. It's hard to say.
Completely missed that on my first read.
- It was stuck in her mind, and every time she thought about it, the gaping wound flared up with pain again. Shallan had killed her mother. Her father had covered it up, pretended he'd murdered his wife, and the event had destroyed his life—driving him to anger and destruction.
Until eventually Shallan had killed him too.
A: I've said this about a million times, but I have to say it again. While I can understand that people don't find it exactly pleasant to read about her fracturing, I'm still glad it happens. If she had simply accepted those truths at the end of WoR and cheerfully moved on, she'd be treading mighty close to Mary Sue-ness. With her past, a good resolution has to be more difficult than simply acknowledging what she did.
I know people here were complaining about Shallan's development in this book, but the point about preventing Mary Sue is a good one.
edited 19th Apr '18 7:57:40 AM by Discar
Jupiterian Local
I totally agree that Shallan shouldn't have just been like "whew, I'm super glad I spoke that Truth, all my problems are fixed now!" The whole point of Oaths is that saying them is easy, living them is the real hard part. I wanted to see Shallan struggle with accepting her Truths and living without either rejecting them or going catatonic. Instead she backslides and represses them so hard that she starts forming literal split personalities.
Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.
Adolin is reminding nicely of Elend, in that favorite books seems to be a part of this courtship he's in. As someone whose goto move for birthdays is buying books for people, I approve.
World's Cutest Direwolf
A: According to the Ars Arcanum, Illumination is “the Surge of Light, Sound, and Various Waveforms”—whatever all that might include, apparently it’s a lot bigger than its name. So she can manipulate sound as well as light.
A bit delayed ,but during those times in Oathbringer where Shallan found drawings she didn't remember making, who thought that one of Re-Shephir's drones had been watching her and tried to copy what they'd seen her doing after she'd left, the same way they tried to copy how people killed? My other explanation for then was that Shallan was having blackouts as one of the other Shallans took control, but as we later saw, the other Shallans are utter crap at drawing, while the pictures in the sketchbook where only disturbing.