Dungeons & Dragons lore!

Or you could just say it's an archlich who doesn't need souls to maintain their phylactery, but... okay, I guess the question is, why is this dubious undead ally a lich specifically? Narratively, I mean. Is it to set up the dilemma of "the princess seems like a good person, and this lich is on the level when he says he'll help her, but he does kind of eat souls every now and then, so are we okay with working with him?" Or is it a less heavy case of "oh, so just because he's undead means he's automatically a bad guy, huh?" How much would the scenario change if the lich was instead a vampire mage who agreed to serve the family in exchange for being allowed to snack (non-fatally) on prisoners in the castle dungeon, or a "deathless" being powered by positive energy like the Undying Court of Eberron?

Though even if the "our ally eats souls" angle is removed, there's still opportunity for drama and conflict with this alliance. Maybe the lich has no interest in openly governing himself, but fully intends to "advise" the princess on how to rule and expects her to obey him - after all, he's been a part of this kingdom for far longer than she has. And maybe the princess is aware of this, and she's the one who plans to backstab her ally, to get rid of this undying puppetmaster that's been a part of her family history for far too long, so she might have the PCs try to acquire the lich's phylactery while he's distracted with the civil war.

You could also emphasize the unique psychology of the undead, making the lich a dispassionate and detached advisor who views this current crisis as just another chapter in his nation's history. He may have difficulty feeling any sort of urgency to get the princess on the throne, since after all he has all the time in the world, and the lich probably has little empathy for the common folk who end up suffering during a civil war (or even for the orphaned princess herself). He might suggest tactics that the princess and PCs consider inhuman, such as killing the puppet prince or spreading a plague into the usurper nobles' mansions, killing them and their innocent servants. And the lich may have little stake in this conflict beyond viewing it as an intellectual exercise, since whichever side wins is still going to want his services as the court mage.

Huh, I'm kind of assuming the lich is male. You don't see many female liches, do you?

The depends on the party's overall alignment and how it fits into what's going on. Was the betrayed king a good ruler, or did the nobility have good reason to revolt? Is the puppet prince being made to rule well and wisely, would he do better to be making his own decisions, or would he rather not take the throne from his older sister? What sort of ruler would the princess be? Is there an alternative to these two factions and their claimants, like a charismatic idealist of humble origins who might found a new dynasty, or national agitation for a republican form of government? Are the players the type to see opportunity in this chaos to take the throne themselves, or wring as much treasure from the conflict as possible without any interest in who ends up winning it?

The Realms has had regular good-aligned liches — Larloch's secretary being a fine example of one. If you can somehow explain how people won't freak out about how the local court adviser happens to be a near-eternal skeleton wizard, then go ahead.

Do recall though that, because of the mechanics of lichdom, even the nicest Lich won't be exactly warm and fuzzy. In Hollowfaust, where we had a Neutral Good dude that was turned into one by accident, he still goes out of his way to avoid regular people because, well, he's still an undead skeleton wizard with witchlight glowing out of his eye sockets.

Unrelated, but help me out here. Looking for a supplement or article that introduced the Blaspheme, which is kind of sort of a semi-intelligent undead. I'm asking this, as one was introduced as part of a boss fight in Expedition to the Ruins of Castle Greyhawk, but NOWHERE in the adventure does it reference which article or 3.5 splatbook the original template/undead came from.

Edited by MyssaRei on Sep 6th 2023 at 2:23:31 AM

I believe that would be Libris Mortis, a 3.5 supplement focused on various undead.

I think the only notable female lich character is Vlaakith CLVII, the Lich Queen of the Githyanki.

There's also Erandis d'Vol, but she's all the way over in Eberron, so we can rule her out of anything in just about any other D&D setting.

Edited by TrashJack on Sep 6th 2023 at 9:50:00 AM

Open Grave for 4th edition had Osterneth, the Bronze Lich, in its "notable undead" section, but per Wikipedia she was created specifically for that book and didn't really do much outside it.

The Demilich librarian in the Epic Level Handbook was specifically is also female as per stats, but you wouldn't know given that she's just a skeletal gem-encrusted hand these days.

Also, surprise surprise! The Shrinshee of Myth Drannor was a massively powerful Baelnorn before she got nuked and turned into this kind-of-sort of spirit weave ghost.

Edited by MyssaRei on Sep 7th 2023 at 11:40:44 AM

Liches' AD&D entry states that

so I wouldn't be surprised if trivial things like sex and gender identity get dropped as easily as a lich's living name. "All the relevant flesh rotted away long before you were born, mortal. My pronoun is now 'great one.'"

Hmm, those names. I wonder if some D&D mages go through a chuuni phase where they're weirdly into the idea of lichdom...

So guys, what's your lich name? Mine's gonna be "the Archivist of Aeons." I'm also looking for a professional artist to draw my lichsona.

I try to make a female lich, the Iron Empress, a major part of my setting.

And, like her, maybe the princess's lich has some pseudo-benevolent goal and the charisma to sweep people up into it. The Iron Empress wanted to create a society with secrets and lies, an empire where people said what they meant and did what they said. She kind of succeeded, creating a society where people think an act of brutality and violence done openly and with honest forewarning is on the same ethical level as using lies and manipulation to commit acts of charity, but it sounded nice when she described it.

Concerning the Dead Three...

The lore behind them is that they were originally a mortal adventuring party who became powerful enough to challenge the gods themselves for divinity.

But given what they are like as gods (and assuming they were just as bad as mortals)...

• Bane: tyrannical control freak

• Myrkul: vain attention seeker

• Bhaal: bloodthirsty murderhobo

The real question is how they lasted long enough to reach Jergal without killing each other first.

Amazingly, they actually held it together until they actually got to Jergal's throne. Then they fell apart fighting each other over who would get said throne. At that point, Jergal — possibly already thinking he made a mistake handing his portfolios to these assholes but wanted to retire already — stepped in and told them to play knucklebones for the portfolios.

Edited by M84 on Sep 11th 2023 at 11:55:36 PM

And then some other random demon appeared to try to get the portfolio too, and they started fighting again, so Jergal took the three aside and ignored the demon to get shit done because he was absolutely sick of this clown fiesta.

One of the important things people forget about how Divinity works in the Realms is this fact: you have to have SOME sliver of divinity to hope to challenge divinity.

The Dead Three had already divvied up the spark of a forgotten god that they had slain (Borem, if you're wondering), because otherwise confronting Jergal would be beside the point, as they wouldn't be able to hurt him.

Said "demon" being Malar. I have to snicker at the image of the Dead Three's game of competitive skull bowling (yes, it was skull bowling using the heads of high level liches) being interrupted by the Beast Lord.

Edited by MyssaRei on Sep 13th 2023 at 9:35:18 AM

I can easily imagine Bane's baldness is a result of the stress he suffered trying to reign in Myrkul and Bhaal. Especially Bhaal.

"Dammit Bhaal! We still needed their information! I told you already, wait until after people cough up answers then gut them like fish."

"If you didn't want someone who thinks the solution to every problem is a good stabbing, you shouldn't have brought me into this."

Actually I was just about to ask about the Death Three:

Their backstory of being three murderhoboing adventurers who became gods sounds to me like the conclusion of some manner of evil D&D campaign. This leads me to ask if they're actually based on someone's campaign from way back when or if they were made from whole cloth if you will?

The Dead Three seem to be original creations from Ed Greenwood's Forgotten Realms setting rather than imports from other, earlier settings (e.g. Greyhawk, Dragonlance), so you might be able to ask him on his YouTube channel if they originated from a campaign he ran.

Edited by TrashJack on Sep 17th 2023 at 4:05:58 AM

This is probably more of a fridge question, but I wonder just how absolutely bored and unsatisfied Jergal must have been, to essentially hand over his structured orderly portfolios to those three nutty squirrels. He did apparently derive some satisfaction in keeping a tidy practice at least. From what I read he has nothing but contempt for them after the fact. I'm guessing he lacked all forms of divine Divination ability and just hoped at least 1 of the three might not be an idiot?

By the time the Three reached Jergal, he no longer really saw any value in his position. He outright described it as "empty power".

Jergal was just that bored.

Edited by M84 on Sep 17th 2023 at 10:32:45 PM

So, there was a BG 3 script leak, and although old it does explain Withers' presence in game. Withers is indeed Jergal, and was placed in the sarcophagus by Helm, of all people. The REASON Helm put him in there is weird though — he was still apparently powering the Dead Three by proxy, so he was in there as atonement, and would aid whoever freed him against the Dead Three's plots.

So the sarcophagus location made sense (as Baldur's Gate is conveniently smack drab in the Sword Coast, where most of the cults of the Dead Three are active), as was why Withers would only help those who found him. Think of it. A hidden shrine of a very minor servitor god who isn't proactive at the best of times.

Edited by MyssaRei on Sep 21st 2023 at 9:10:35 AM

So basically Helm's making Jergal take responsibility for enabling the Dead Three's bullshit.

Jergal wanted to retire and instead he's forced to help clean up his successors' messes.

Edited by M84 on Sep 21st 2023 at 6:50:42 PM

I kind of figured something was up. One of the few rules that made sense since Greyhawk was that quasi-deities can't grant spells on their own, and while they can have clerics, it's only because they channel divine energy from their own patrons (see Boccob to Zagyg or Heironeous to Murlynd). Until they make that final jump from quasi-deity or demigod to lesser deity, they can't send out divine magic from themselves yet, as they haven't hit that critical amount of worship needed to do so.

So how have the Dead Three been giving spells to their followers? Do you really think that Bhaal, for example, would bow to Cyric? Or Myrkul to Kelemvor? So its likely through their residual link to Jergal, as they had been his successors.

Edited by MyssaRei on Sep 26th 2023 at 9:34:42 AM

It kind of makes you wonder if Jergal was really able to stop being the Lord of the End of Everything. Even after giving away his portfolios and demoting himself, he's still somehow powering his successors.

I wonder if its possible to worship the lady of pain outside Sigil itself,I know inside Sigil she would instantly kill or maze anyone dumb enough to try

The Lady herself has absolute control over the portals to and from Sigil, so I'd assume that anyone cocky enough to think they can get away with worshiping her by doing so outside of The Cage will soon find that the next door, arch, etc. will turn out to be a one-way portal to directly in front of Her Bladed Serenity, with its associated portal key being the person in question's soon-to-be-flayed body.

Edited by TrashJack on Oct 25th 2023 at 2:10:19 PM

That's silly; everyone knows the only god worth worshipping is Pun-Pun, who is factually infinitely more godly than all other gods combined, including himself.

Pretty much the only person the Lady of Pain can't permanently smite with extreme prejudice was the Nameless One. And she could still flay him instantly with ease. It just wouldn't stick since he was the closest thing the Planes ever knew to true Complete Immortality (thanks to his mortality being separated from him).