Fire Emblem Three Houses (Spoiler Thread)

All the other routes also have you defeating the empire at every point, even when it makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. It makes no sense to single out CF for this.

This is literally the opposite of what the game says. I've been holding off on a massive wall of text on how apparently nobody born in Fodlan can be a good person unless they follow Rhea and the Central Church for like a month or so, it's probably time to finally post it.

Edited by Druplesnubb on Jul 1st 2020 at 1:14:20 PM

Basically, the only characters not following the Central Church, who are still protrayed as good people, are those from places the church doesn't lay claim to. It's okay for Claude to criticize the church because he's Almyran so he's outside the church's jurisdiction (and since he's a good guy, he eventually decides that all of Fodlan should be ruled by an absolute monarch ruling because of their connection to the goddess). Claude, Dedue and Petra are all also loyal to the religions of their homelands.

And if your homeland is Fodlan, and you're not loyal to its religion, youre always a bad guy. Adrestia is the only country that doesn't follow the church so naturally they're the villains. Edelgard and Hubert are the only atheists in the game, so of course they're totalitarian conquerors who commit war crimes left and right.

It's not even enough to worship the goddess, you have to follow Rhea and the Central Church specifically in order to be a good person. The Western Church is opposed to the Central Church's authority, so naturally they're a bunch of one-dimensional religious fanatics who get easily manipulated by the evil atheists. The Eastern Church on the other hand is firmly under the Central Church's control, so they're good guys instead. The evil empire still worhsips the goddess, they just have a different religious head (who of course is an over the top sexist child abuser). This makes sense since it's not about actually believing in the goddess or what the church preaches (since the church's teachings are to a to a large extent knowingly false), but obeying the church for the sake of obedience itself. See also how positively Seteth and Flayn ar portrayed for following the church even though they know a lot of its teachings are false.

This even extends to the player character itself. As the player you're forced to not only join the church but to literally become the pope and the only route where you don't is the evil route because of course it fucking is. It's especially blatant on Black Eagles where the "good" choice is the one that leads to all of Fodlan becoming a theocracy ruled directly by the Central Church, while the route where that doesn't happen is the "bad" choice.

The closest thing the game has to an exception is Jeralt, who used to be a Rhea stan until he got disillusioned with her because Rhea didn't explain to him why she was perfectly in the right even though she could have easily done so with no problem, because Jeralt needed to be distrustful of Rhea but we can't have Rhea and the Central Church do anything bad ever unless the cartoonishly evil atheists are goading them into it. The only nonbeliever who's portrayed positively is Lorenz, who follows the church's rules and rituals even though he doesn't believe in them because he feels that he has to (see my previous point about obedience over belief). This is what a "good" dissenter looks like according to this game.

Edited by Druplesnubb on Jul 1st 2020 at 1:36:34 PM

To be fair, as far as the Evil JRPG Church(tm) thing goes, Rhea is actually pretty lucky since there's only one route that portrays her as irredeemable, plus another one where she is seemingly set up as an antagonist only to vanish for half the game and pull a Heroic Sacrifice near the end.

But boy does Crimson Flower bend over backwards to convince you that she is 100% evil...

Edited by YnK on Jul 1st 2020 at 4:06:57 AM

Koi seji to / mitarashigawa ni / seshi misogi / kami wa ukezu zo / nari ni kerashi mo (KKS #501)

I don't know, like i still say Rhea is portrayed much more sympathetically than people say in CF, but that's an argument for another time. What is far more concerning is that the whole Rhea gets kidnapped feels more like the writers didn't want to deal with her during the war phrase. But i'll elaborate more later.

So i'd like to take a poll here, my guest wants to skip to the war section of Golden Deer, because she's tired of seeing the Academy phase. I have a save file at chapter 12 of the Golden Deer, should i let her skip or not?

Japan has this thing for obeying authority as we all know from Persona 5. And like how standing up to corrupt authority is like a radical message.

It helps that the Church has an attractive lady pope with hips.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 1st 2020 at 5:04:08 AM

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

Well, they also didn't want to deal with Sothis during the war phase...

Koi seji to / mitarashigawa ni / seshi misogi / kami wa ukezu zo / nari ni kerashi mo (KKS #501)

Yeah that's super weird too, like they didn't want to have Sothis approve of any route, but that comes at the cost of destroying all the build up that Sothis and Rhea had.

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

I'd let her go ahead with the skip because to be honest, the Golden Deer have the least interesting academy phase of the three.

It's been 3000 years…

CF is the route where Rhea turns out to be exactly as evil and heinous as Edelgard keeps saying, the supposedly devout characters can end up agreeing with Edelgard that the Church is a horrible, evil thing that needs to be destroyed at any cost, Edelgard ends by making a big heroic speech about how religion is just a crutch for weak people that she's too good for, and in the end the supposedly devout people of Fodlan become shiny, happy atheists thus creating a golden age.

The Western Church is Always Chaotic Evil, without even a token sympathetic character. The Southern Church was also evil thus justifying how half of Fodlan hates the Church. The Eastern Church, who are portrayed as powerless, irrelevant, and sycophantic to the nobility, are the most sympathetic of the branch churches.

And even when the game does get into what Rhea's actual motives are, after most of the plot treating her as suspicious and implying she's up to something nefarious, she's still treated as morally questionable and self-critical of her own behavior.

Nach jeder Ebbe kommt die Flut.

I singled out CF because it’s the one route where for five years the Knights of Seiros are NOT scattered, the Church has allied with the second-strongest nation on the continent, and yet somehow nobody makes any progress until Edelgard’s “Sensei-sama!” comes back, and then suddenly in less than five months they sweep through all their opposition (save TWSITD) despite the game telling us the KOS are the strongest force in the land... who again, have allied with the battle-hardened Kingdom. If the story wants me to seriously think, then I think the fact we have a discrepancy here - and that the Church doesn’t significantly hurt the Empire during Part II, even - is a problem which the writing does not account for.

Compared to “Fates” and its Conquest route (and even Birthright in the writing and character departments), CF does everything better... except the power discrepancy which is not only inconsistent (although admittedly SS is worse) and a campaign that lacks real, tangible tension because the antagonists are all talk and no effect OR success!

Edited by CaellachTigerEye on Jul 1st 2020 at 10:55:54 PM

How is that any different than the empire supposedly crushing all opposition and dominating the continent but then folding in less than a year because the plot says so?

I mean, technically there ARE remnants of the Kingdom like Fraldarius and Gautier fighting Cornelia, plus internal strife in conquered territory and the Alliance lords being pitted against each other?

I mean, I see your point and I hear you, but I wasn’t actively out to say the other routes were faultless (though I can see how it came out that way). More a general statement if why and how CF’s execution of its own conflict disappointed me (and perhaps others).

So I knw that you can get special battallions by taking Seteth/Flayn or Dorothea/Manuela to certain places in Enbarr. If you enter the battle without any battallion equipped to these characters, will they equip the battallion when you get it, or will it just go to the inventory?

Edited by Druplesnubb on Jul 1st 2020 at 6:38:09 PM

IIRC, you don't actually get the battalions until you beat the map.

Koi seji to / mitarashigawa ni / seshi misogi / kami wa ukezu zo / nari ni kerashi mo (KKS #501)

CF tries to present the Empire as the underdog, when theyve already conquered half of Faerghus and taken Garreg Mach like in the other routes, they already have half the Alliance on their side, and its pretty easy to take the rest.

This is a big part of why the CF trying to present itself as the underdog doesnt work. Things were always in the Empires favor yet Edelgard insists things as are in a stalemate when shes already taken a lot before the timeskip, and insists on killing people like Judith to make it even easier when she has the military power to capture them. Heck killing Dimitri backfired because the Kingdom continued to fight to the last because despite having him at her mercy she chose to kill him instead of doing something logical like using him as a hostage to make them give up.

This disconnect is why Edelgards insistence the church has such power never worked for me, when you get all these advantages, and you do so easily, thats not matching what she says.

The other factions dont get this luxury. Even with the combined might of a nation + Church Knights do they manage to turn things around, and they need Byleth because the power to reverse time is invaluable in this situation. Byleths power allowed the Knights to do things that would have been impossible even for them like taking the Great Bridge.

Then partway through Claude/Dimitri rallies the rest of their nation into helping after Gronder, either diplomatically or by retaking the Dukedom, ensuring they can finally march ahead and face the Empire. The Church even avoids the battle at Gronder meaning their forces dont get involved in such a debilitating battle, while Edelgard manages to get severely injured by Dimitri/Claude because all the factions are acting as soon as Byleth returns and we start fighting back.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

That and as I said, the events in the CF story don’t properly support what the text claims.

Again, it’s not that VW/SS/AM lack for nitpicks in the details, but selling the Empire as the underdog was already a tough ask by design and the execution was lacking, to put it simply.

You kind of... aren't given the option to not kill Dimitri, though, since he is one of the commanders.

But yeah, CF!Edelgard loses a great deal of competence. She is perfectly capable of leading her forces on her own on other routes (where, notably, most people remain unaware of Rhea's identity, so she can't even use that to get supporters), and it takes Byleth suddenly rejoining one of the opposing sides to defeat her.

Koi seji to / mitarashigawa ni / seshi misogi / kami wa ukezu zo / nari ni kerashi mo (KKS #501)

half of Faerghus? in CF no they don't have half the kingdom, in fact the Kingdom is far more powerful in CF, and you yourself stated that Claude is actually wholly supporting the Kingdom as noted in the Abyss. And the half of the Alliance that supports the Empire really doesn't do much to help out, even Acheron isn't on the Empire's side, most likely because he can't profit off this version of Edelgard.

And really, it's much better that the Empire isn't an underdog like the other routes, i generally prefer the stalemate the war actually is, not that a contrived oh our faction is almost defeated till Byleth gets back. CF's tale is less underdog and more the Empire is outgunned but not outmatched. Hell they are the only faction that actually gets nuked, and we still fight on.

Granted, the Empire does need Byleth in CF.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 1st 2020 at 10:49:37 AM

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

Yeah the orther routes are more clear they are the underdog, while at the same time it gets ridiculous how lacking in power they are supposed to be to the point Seteth says they somehow took the great bridge.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

I think IS took the whole underdog story too far in certain cases, like how the hell is Rodrigue holding up against the Empire and half the Kingdom in a snowy wasteland.

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

The Empire don’t need to be the underdog in the conflict, but the story shouldn’t try to CLAIM they are with how they hype the alliance if Church and Kingdom up.

Would have liked it if SS let you officially ally with just one of the other two powers against the Empire. Or something that wasn’t the offscreen battle of Gronder because that was a WEAK idea and execution of an idea.

YES! That would have been excellent. And it’s not like Japan is as enamoured with the most extreme cases of underdog stories like the West is... they can be at a disadvantage, but for instance technically the legal authority rather than fighting against it, etc.

Edited by CaellachTigerEye on Jul 2nd 2020 at 3:55:02 AM

IS really should have gone with the outgunned and outnumbered idea, but not outmatched.

Like it's the Church, Kingdom, Alliance and Agartha against the Empire.

And hey, at least it was fun to play as the Empire for once in Fire Emblem and not hear how badly we are losing till the last minute.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 1st 2020 at 10:53:43 AM

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

@Red:

"The Empire firmly controls the western portion of Faerghus." This is literally what Hubert says on CF in the first timeskip chapter. With what we know of Dimitri, not only should this not be the case, the man should have been more than capable of taking part of the Empire and pushing them to the brink because of his unbeatable strength. And he even has Rhea and the Knights to back him.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jul 1st 2020 at 10:56:38 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Really when was this? And how? Cornelia didn't pull off her coup. EDIT: Okay, yeah that's bizarre.

I gotta say, it's chilling to see how much Rodrigue trusts Cornelia and even refers to her as Lady in CF.

Gotta love dramatic irony.

Dimitri only having one eye means he's serious, according to Chris Hackney.

CF Dimitri should have put on his eyepatch.

Edited by RedHunter543 on Jul 1st 2020 at 10:57:49 AM

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.

Its why the Narrator keeps bringing up the battle with the Kingdom happens between the Central/East half versus the West. Because the Empire always conquers the western half.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Jul 1st 2020 at 10:57:13 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Gotta go, for now.

But i'll leave this question, If Thales managed to steal the Sword of the creator pre timeskip, what would he do with it?

I'll teach you a lesson about just how cruel the world can be. That's my job, as an adult.