Netflix's The Dragon Prince

In Sol Regem's case it seems to be a combination of disgust with the Life Drain aspect of Dark Magic and the idea of "lesser beings" trying to wield such power.

Sol Regem makes very clear those are it. The way he talks also makes clear he views anything with magic as inherently better than humans too.

It's kind of poignant that the very first Dark Magic user was just a guy who wanted to make life better for humans and give them the same prosperity that other races with magic enjoyed. Serves as a rather jarring contrast to the self-serving Viren.

It is not a very large contrast, considering that Viren started with good intentions.

For the third season, he was already a straight villain, but didn't start that way.

Not that well intentioned given that the flashback shows his first thought upon realising Thunder was protecting his unborn son was to murder said unborn son. Not to mention the fact that he emotionally manipulates Harrow into going after Thunder when he shows reluctance.

He may have had ill intentions for dragons, but he seemed to firmly believe that what he's doing was good for the humanity.

Goading Harrow into killing Thunder out of revenge wasn't in anybody's best interest as killing him wouldn't accomplish anything except starting a war.

Ziard by contrast never seemed to feel any genuine ill will towards dragons and only wanted to be on equal footing with the other races.

Another big difference is that Ziard when push came to shove didn't hesitate to sacrifice himself to save his people. Viren otoh sacrifices everyone but himself for his goals.

I do find it kind of interesting that Sol Regem never tried to reclaim his position as Dragon King even after Avizandum perished. It's not like he gives a shit about the current leadership, given how he was willing to kill Azy.

Edited by M84 on Jan 7th 2020 at 10:26:40 PM

Perhaps it's some sort of dragon law that their ruler can't be disabled, blindness is especially bad if you're a flyer. Or perhaps Zubeia would be the new ruler as she was Avizandum's mate while Sol Regem didn't seem to have one. Or maybe he never found out, doesn't seem like he gets many visitors.

I wouldn't be surprised if Sol Regem wanted to exterminate humanity for that attack while Avizandum was the one who settled on exile.

Edited by Kaiseror on Jan 7th 2020 at 8:47:01 AM

Though remember that Avizandum wasn't Sol Regem's successor. He took the position after Luna Tenebris, who took the position from Sol Regem after he stepped down.

It seems like in Dragon society the rulers step down voluntarily. Sol Regem stepped down after two hundred years and Luna Tenebris stepped down after 700 years.

The fact that Sol Regem did step down voluntarily indicates that he probably just doesn't want to be king again. Though even if he did try to reclaim the position, he'd undoubtedly face opposition — he's widely feared and hated in Xadia because he's such an angry hateful asshole.

Edited by M84 on Jan 7th 2020 at 10:49:52 PM

Took waaay too long to watch this. Claudia has really become a threat now huh? It's a bit sad seeing her remain so loyal to her obviously evil at this point father but she's easily his best ally. I have a feeling she's cursed herself in order to revive him, probably using her own life force.

And yeah I get the complaints with the fartflowers. Sometimes the show *can be* funny, sometimes it needs to sit down and not try so hard to inject humor ALL the time. Plus I feel stuff like the magical girl posing and fartflowers are too low brow and cheapen the tone of the show.

Edited by Vertigo_High on Jan 22nd 2020 at 2:21:58 AM

Also took a while to watch it.

I liked how the season started with the first Dark magic user at his most sympathetic. While the season ended with Viren at his worst.

I'll echo the thoughts of others in poor Claudia.

Also felt while the ending with the Queen being her troops was a little rushed. Although I do like it overall.

Also, it might have been shipping goggles but I feel like Amaya and Janai were meant to have the beginnings of a thing. Especially with the hand holding at the same time as Callum and Rayla.

Edited by 32ndfreeze on Jan 27th 2020 at 6:58:12 AM

Well, finally watched the third season.

I feel like they did much better balancing the gray morality here than in the previous seasons. Callum's and Rayla's relationship also actually feels nicely developed.

Actually, all the character's developments (positive and negative) feel pretty well handled. Definitely the best season so far.

Finally news:

Nothing about season four, but a set of three books being published by Scholastic over the course of 2020.

Callum's Spellbook: A Defictionalization of Callum's sketchbook, which contains information about Xadia, the human kingdoms, elves, dragons, and magic. It also contains notes from other characters who have "borrowed" his book at various times. Releases in March.

The Dragon Prince: Book One: Moon: A novelization of season one, containing new plot lines and information not seen in the show. Written by Aaron Ehasz as essentially the director's cut of season one I guess. Releases in June.

The Dragon Prince: Through the Moon: A graphic novel set after season three. Rayla, Callum and Ezran go on a quest to find Rayla's parents and Runaan in the "World Between Life and Death." Releases in September.

The graphic novel is a bit odd. Unless it ends with them failing, that really seems like something they should save for the actual show. Its not a case of them making it because they don't think season four is happening either, as it mentions being "set between seasons three and four" as if its still happening.

Edited by IHOP on Feb 26th 2020 at 12:03:18 PM

Good to hear that much, at least.

Hmmm...the graphic novel is odd, but then again, there is supposed to he a time jump right? So...I guess it kind of makes sense.

God I hope we get season 4.

About the other two books, I'm excited! Especially the novelization!

Netflix's silence has gone on for a while now.

I feel like this means cancellation at this point.

I mean what is Wonderstorm doing while Netflix decides on what to do? Are the employees on retainer until Netflix says one way or another?

Animation takes a while, especially since it sounds like Seasons 1-3 were made concurrently. If there’s no news by summer, then it might be time to worry a bit.

So I finally finished the show after procrastinating for months. Honestly, I was left feeling a little underwhelmed. I feel that they had an interesting story with shades of grey on their hands and just kinda threw it out for a straightforward finale in the end. There were some comments a few pages back about Moral Luck and I gotta agree — in a more cynical setting, the very same actions by the same characters could've had wildly different outcomes based on factors outside of their control, namely how organized and hostile Xadia was.

Full disclosure, I find Viren the most interesting character in the series and I'm miffed at how they botched his Jumping Off the Slippery Slope arc. Through the first two seasons they did a great job of showing how he was an arrogant and self-centered man but who genuinely wanted the best for the kingdom and his friend, and as his failures mounted he went to more and more extreme lengths until he resorted to Aaravos. There were still moments that were obviously villainous (most notably sending Soren to assassinate the princes, though in a very cynical context you could sort of see the point), though there were also some head-scratchers (the meeting with the other kings, in which they came across as a bunch of wishy-washy pushovers with no political acumen at all). But on the whole I felt it was a well-executed fall from grace that had more subtlety than just "Evil Chancellor takes over power because he's a puppy-kicking asshole" and was a core part of the show's approach to grey morality.

But come the third season, there were two things they did with Viren that bothered me (three really, but the third one, him turning his human army into lava monsters, I can accept as a necessity to keep the final battle from being too grey, if a bit hokey). One was Thunder's death. I realize this is not a universal (or maybe even common) view, but from the opening (which has Thunder standing on a hill roaring at masses of human soldiers), I got the distinct impression that Thunder had died in the course of hostilities between humans and elves. Instead, Thunder was assassinated out of the blue by Viren, who went after him (and dragged Harrow into it) completely unprompted just because he could. Sure, they were avenging the queens' deaths, but the fact that this was way after that happened and there wasn't even a pretext of any goal but naked revenge left a sour taste in my mouth. The second, relatedly, is that they revealed that Viren was the one who killed (or trapped in coins, same end result) Rayla's parents, who were then labeled as traitors (presumably because they didn't find their corpses? It was vague) so then when Viren is defeated that's a nice cap off to the arc.

In short, it feels like they retroactively revealed Viren to be way more villainous than he had originally been presented as for the sake of having a convenient end to the series by defeating him. The Moonshadow Elves assassinating Harrow in retaliation for Thunder's death is a lot more justified once thay was a result of a largely unprompted assassination in turn, rather than as a consequence of the escalating hostilities. This is my bias speaking, but it almost feels like they thought Viren was getting leather-pants'd too much and tacked on more evil deeds retroactively when his actual gradually-worsening actions (not to mention his treatment of his family — Soren and Claudia's arcs dovetailed nicely from that) were more than enough to qualify him as the villain. It feels like they didn't want too much moral ambiguity so they had to tack that on and it rather ruined the effect for me.

And this is for another post, but the child queen's Rohan moment at the end made me roll my eyes into my skull. That's not how you do a well-earned The Cavalry reversal.

All you're gettingnisnfull context on what Viren did. Why was Harrow disllussioned with Viren's ways? Why it's after they had Thunder assassinated which is stated by the Elves, and most damning, Why did Harrow not know about the Prince Egg?

That last one was all you needed to start to piece together that Viren is sabotaging his relationship with Harrow by trying to validate his need for others(Harrows) approval, and that his own sabotaging behavior ends up making his points lose meaning, as he can always find a way to spin it to sound better no matter how self-destructice said behavior is. The last episode where he sees himself alive and his daughter brought him back to life, meaning he can do some self-reflection that doesn't involve shouting his issues at himself.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Apr 16th 2020 at 1:57:52 AM

Agreed. Viren is the most interesting character in the show, and how the writers ended up handling him is terribly frustrating and inconsistent. And then there's the Moral Luck nature of the whole conflict- it's like they never gave any serious thought to the meaning of their decisions.

I don't mind the revenge aspect so much, since it's a major theme of the series, but I do think it makes matters a bit too personal. The history of Xadia and Katolis is supposed to be this grand struggle of warring nations, not a relatively small-scale interpersonal drama where all the major characters have personally wronged one-another. It makes the conflict seem smaller and more intimate than it should.

That doesn't make any sense. If he were looking for Harrow's approval, ordering the assassination of his children would be the last thing he'd do. Viren doesn't care about anyone's approval. If he did, he'd have stopped using Dark Magic when Harrow disapproved of it. Viren's character has always been someone who's willing to do the right thing no matter the cost, that's what makes him interesting.

Moreover, I don't know what aspect of Viren's psychology is supposed to make the risk of Xadia invading Katolis and burning it to the ground any less horrible a prospect. Anyone would want to prevent that, including Harrow, and the show gives him good reasons to think that's what might happen.

Edited by Gault on Apr 17th 2020 at 2:08:58 AM

That was after he decided to double down after Harrow ordered him to kneel. He's doing it out of petty anger and to "prove" he has what it takes to Harrow whether the mans a parrot or dead.

And no the idea he alwaya sought to "do the right thing" means you were misisng that he had selfish and ulterior motives even in Season 1. A man who "always does the right thing" wouldn't suggest a cycle of revenge because it perpetuates violence, and killing the heir/using a sentient being to gain power does not solve that problem. Which HELLO the Dragon Queen ordered a hit on them for doing that.

Viren needs to define his self-worth by believing he knows better than anyone about everything and validating that with increasingly violent acts that don't prove he's right, they prove the opposite. He was in a self-destructive negative character arc that was increasingly bringing him down a worse path, and that Aaravos became an enabler who feeds into his worse tendencies, followed by Claudia, only made that descent all the more destructive.

Season 3 pushed it to go faster, but his devolving actions were inevitable so long as he continued down the path he had already set himself on.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Apr 16th 2020 at 11:43:08 AM

Harrow's been out of the picture for a long time, and we are given no reason to believe he plays a prominent role in Viren's motivations after the very start of the series.

I can believe he felt betrayed by Harrow's dismissive treatment, especially when he was offering to sacrifice his own life in Harrow's place- and that this is what convinced him to take matters into his own hands- but we don't really see Viren pine after Harrow's approval like we'd expect if your assessment of his motivations was correct. I can also believe that Viren is motivated by his fear of failure, and that he believes that he is uniquely qualified to solve Katolis' problems, but the former is hardly a surprise given how high the stakes are and the show itself repeatedly gives us very good reasons- apparently without even realizing it- to think that Viren is entirely correct to think he's the only one interested in saving Humanity from an imminent invasion. This point bears repeating: literally every time we see a Human authority figure after Harrow's assassination, they're either a useless toady or obstinate moron.

Let me put it this way- if there were some other prominent figure who could step in and lead Katolis through the current crisis, I don't think Viren would be where he is. I think he would have fallen in line behind them and acted as an advisor in the same manner he had under Harrow. Remember, Viren initially proposed that Amaya should step in as regent, and she refused. If he really were nakedly power-hungry, that's the last thing we'd expect him to do.

Viren isn't perpetuating a cycle of revenge. He is responding to a tangible and imminent military threat in a way that he believes will save the largest number of lives. That's what makes him such a compelling and nuanced character. Viren does what he does because he thinks he has no choice.

When considering everything together, there really is very little evidence in favor of your interpretation. No, it seems much more likely to me that you're working the psychology angle as a way of downplaying the threat from Xadia, which is a much more prominent aspect of Viren's motivations and also much harder to argue against.

Edited by Gault on Apr 18th 2020 at 3:54:42 AM

He literally taunts the bird about how he'll do things immeditely after Harrows death, and he was going to sacrifice himself when coming before Harrow in his only act of genuine selfless. Ignoring how Harrows treatment of him set him on the worse path as he feeds his worse attributes under the guise of "well intentioned" ignores how Viren offered to kill himself after showing hesitation of throwing his own life away earlier while happily talking about sacrificing others for Harrow without a second thought.

Then theres the fact its explicitly shown all his acts to justify the means are consistently shown would end up with him in power, and its always HIM who has to have said power, and later his outright attempts to reveal the "truth" behind the Mirror Aaravos was imprisoned in only to shout and demean himself as he looked in the mirror about how he's "nothing. Nobody. Unimportant".

The man even throws a childish tantrum about things not going his way when talking with the Kings because a child showed she's not sacrificing her people out of fearmongering, and this was after attempting emotional manipulation using the fact her moms died on that mission..

Hell Harrow believes the Dragon Prince IS dead! And his daughter Claudia is the one who reveals this is not only not the case, but they took it for all the POWER his parts will give in the FIRST SEASON. And in the second she shows this mentality with her goal of carving up another sentient being for the parts.

Viren LITERALLY IS SHOWN GOADING HARROW TO SEEK REVENGE! They literally showed this in Season 3, and his response was to continue escalating events by justifying murdering the prince, changing his mind thanks to Raylas parents manipulating HIM into sparing the Prince for said power. The fact Harrow alluded that Virens plans have made things this bad is consistently shown when he tries to fight the Dragon King forcing the Queen to die to save him, and followed his mistake with seeking revenge when that could have ended with only two queens dead if not for Virens previous ac.

Harrow outright says Virens advice is why he was in said mess in Season 1, and while that doesn't absolve Harrows own actions, the later seasons confirmed that yes Harrow was spot on

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Apr 17th 2020 at 1:43:43 AM

While I can see the argument about them going off the rails with Viren's sliding scale of gray to black, I really have to agree that if you think his character is "someone who always does the right thing even when it's hard" you've missed the point of the character by a mile.