@Kree blood: Yon-rogg will likely give free blood transfusions in the future once he gets out of the system of abuse he's stuck in with the SI, since the Deleted scene is canon from what I understand.
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
Steve did what he did because there were no other options.
At the point they were at, getting the stone out of vision without sacrificing him was still viable as far as they knew.
Also, has it been considered that maybe Steve feels that way because he personally knows how it affects those left behind?
He’s seeing himself and Peggy in Vision and Wanda and wants to do for them what couldn’t be done for him: give them another option.
One Strip! One Strip!
Self-Sacrificing one life where there is no other option.
Gamora tries to do it, Peter tries to do it to fulfill Gamoras wishes, and its only when its the only option and the enemy is bearing down on them that Wanda does it. Even Hawkeye and Widow do this with trying to sacrifice themselves while letting the other live during the Soul Stone scene, which could still be handled better than it was.
Doing it when there's no other options and its the persons own choice is what Steve is saying as Rob points out. Whereas Vision was saying they should just kill him outright then and there to prevent it from falling into the wrong hands.
And as we know with Thanos he's all about sacrificing everyone then and there whether they want to or not, for his warped Greater Good.
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
When Steve said "We don't trade lives," it was when they actually had the option of, you know, getting the Stone out without killing Vision. Once that option was off the table, it was no longer "trading lives," it was letting Vision sacrifice himself, which is what happened (even if it was immediately erased by Thanos and the Time Stone).
Again: "trading lives" doesn't mean "no self-sacrifices," it means "don't sacrifice yourself when there are other options."
Getting the stone out of Vision was never a good option when the heroes knew Thanos can teleport, kick the crud out of the Hulk and Thor, and just kidnapped the wizard with the Time Stone. For all they knew he could just pop in anytime while they were still discussing options.
Edited by Tuckerscreator on May 31st 2019 at 8:47:11 AM
I mean, that's like saying "Steve should have let them destroy Sokovia with all those civilians on board because Ultron could have dropped it at any time." Steve will always try to rescue people first and hold off until the last moment in doing anything else.
And they didn't know Thanos had any more of the Stones, only that he had the two Bruce said he had.
Edited by alliterator on May 31st 2019 at 8:50:21 AM
Same Steve who ordered Helicarriers shot down with himself, Bucky, and an uncertain amount of “no time to check if they’re HYDRA or SHIELD” personnel aboard. And ordered a portal shut with Tony still on the wrong side of a nuke.
Edited by Tuckerscreator on May 31st 2019 at 8:53:28 AM
Leader of the Holey Brotherhood
You tell me a person who would immediately throw someone else under the bus like that?
Even the coldest individual wouldn’t just do that if they knew there was another option...
Ok, maybe I’m being a bit naive there, but for these people who are friends, immediately jumping to MDK would be OOC.
Of course Steve is gonna try to save his friend. That’s what you do.
One Strip! One Strip!
Besides its not Steves fault Tony and Bruce weren't wise enough to construct him in a way that he could live without the Soul Stone, which they could have done but didn't think about at the time.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on May 31st 2019 at 8:54:16 AM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Honestly, this live trading is just a slippery slope. Self-sacrifice is for moments in which there is no other option left and has to happen willingly, it is not something you just allow someone to do as precaution. Has nobody here watched the third season of Supernatural? There are lines you just don't cross. "let's just kill this person/allow this person to sacrifice herself" is the kind of stuff a demon would suggest to tempt the heroes. Not something the heroes should actually DO.
Whenever the heroes attempt to sacrifice themselves or each other in Infinity War, it doesn't work, but that can be chalked up to them waiting till the last frickin' second to do it. Had Gamora or Vision died earlier, a lot of heartache could have been avoided.
I think Steve's position is that he's absolutely fine with self-sacrifice, but he doesn't see what Vision's trying to do as a self-sacrifice. Steve still sees himself as being in charge, even though him and Vision aren't technically on the same team anymore. So when the question "Should Vision's life be sacrificed to destroy the Mind Stone?" comes up, Steve sees that as his decision to make, not Vision's, and he's not going to sacrifice a friend and teammate.
Funny but not helpful
Destroying the mind stone soul have saved half the universe in the short term but also in the short term Semi Infinite Thanos would definitely have destroyed Earth in a fit of pique
That didn’t enter into the thought process but I thought I’d mention it
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It wasn't self-sacrifice. Just him trying to use any means necessary to keep it out of the enemies hands.
Because when you casually kill someone to deal with a threat seeking said person you just end up being like Thanos, who actively tried to murder Tony just in case.
Tony ends Thanos and foils his bullshit about "The Greater Good*tm and I am Inevitable*tm" by self-sacrificing himself of his own volition in the end as well. Just as he's done before to save New York.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on May 31st 2019 at 9:24:36 AM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Hopped over to Texts From Superheroes, hoping they had a few fun stuff post-Endgame. I was not disappointed.
- Finally, a definitive answer about Old Cap.
- On that note, Old Cap isn't exactly as final an end for the character as it could be.*
- We finally discover the origin of the "Antman Crawls Up Thanos' Ass" meme.
- Coulson only takes one conclusion from the events of Captain Marvel.
- Speaking of, Carol doesn't exactly like having a pager.
Jokes aside, the fact that they have a readily available way to just make Cap young again ifever and whenever the writers want to (like, say, if they convince Chris Evans to come back a decade from now for a nostalgic return in Avengers 6 or something) hadn't occurred to me. But... yeah. They've basically invented immortality.
Edited by KnownUnknown on May 31st 2019 at 9:41:53 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Tony didn’t request Thanos kill him for a cause they both believed in.
The only difference between Vision and Tony’s sacrifice was that Vision wasn’t physically capable of killing himself.
Recall also that Gamora tried to sacrifice herself and it didn’t work. The narrative did not reward her regardless of alleged higher moral ground.
Because Thanos is all about killing everything that stands in his way and will outright contradict his beliefs if he sees a threat or kill the one person he cares about most because It's All About Me. Just as he did with the Dwarves by killing everyone but the one who forged his Gauntlet. Thanos first response is always to murder when it poses a problem just in case, and he's never willing to make the sacrifice himself.
Past!Thanos best shows this by being very clear he'll just be God of a new universe when things don't go his way. Since everything will be a threat to his "Goodness" kill everyone. Especially earth that he'll murder personally.
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Remember when Coulson told Loki that he would lose because he lacked conviction? Now, Thanos had conviction. Consequently he won. But on the heroes side the difference between Infinity war and Endgame is not their conviction or their readiness to sacrifice themselves, it is simply their ability to trust, work together and focus on their goal, free from pride. In Infinity war, there is CONSTANT bickering, and between the three groups, there is only ONE which doesn't put their personal pride over everything else, and that is Caps group (because he is cap). Hence they come the closest to actually stopping Thanos (though sacrifice), but don't manage it, because at this point the other groups have already failed.
Queen of Good Things, Honest
Again: "trading lives" doesn't mean "no self-sacrifices," it means "don't sacrifice yourself when there are other options."
It wasn't, actually. When Steve said "We don't trade lives," the only options on the table were "Kill Vision" or "Do not kill Vision". A third option only opened up after Steve's refusal, and it is disingenuous to credit Steve's motivations as including options he did not at the time know about.
Steve rejected self-sacrifice out of hand and demanded a Third Option. In return, reality promptly conspired to present him with one. You may note this as exactly the same thing that should have happened with the Vormir sacrifice successfully instead of failing to happen with Vision and the Mind Gem.
Within the context of "We don't trade lives," the Wakandan option is irrelevant. It was not on the table when he said that.
EDIT: It's also worth noting that Dr. Strange's situation is straight-up sacrificing another person for victory. He chose the path that would lead to Tony's death. He set up the pieces such that Tony would sacrifice himself. Regardless of what you think about Steve and Vision, Strange sacrificed Tony. That sacrifice of another person is how the day was saved.
Just like he said he would.
So. Yeah. Infinity War/Endgame have some thematic problems with sacrifice. Killing people for the greater good is weirdly endorsed by the films; those who sacrifice prevail and those who refuse to sacrifice fail.
Edited by TobiasDrake on May 31st 2019 at 1:01:32 PM
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Edited by alliterator on May 31st 2019 at 12:19:12 PM
Past Thanos failed. Future Thanos won everything. Heck, he arguably still won considering his Snap wasn’t reversed, just negated.
Which also means Present Thanos lost. And got his head chopped off.
Future Thanos still failed.
The universe wasn't grateful, he gave up whatever he cared about to achieve it, and the Heroes undid it five years later.
His sacrifices amounted to nothing.
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
For a villain, five years with everyone in the universe forced to play by your rules, and perhaps for decades more depending on long the effects of the Snap linger, is basically the golden ending. Beats every villain.
Edited by Tuckerscreator on May 31st 2019 at 12:43:14 PM
Not at all.
The world disn't do what he wanted. People weren't grateful or think he was correct afterwards, and the mayhem caused by it has affected the entire universe and the rest of the Universe didn't have Avengers to help keep it together.
His Balance was never achieved, and Past!Thanos throws a hissyfit about it and decides fo play God as a result.
Edited by OmegaRadiance on May 31st 2019 at 12:46:03 PM
Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.
Since Infinity War.
Vision actually calls Steve out on the hypocrisy of "We don't trade lives". Steve never gets to answer the accusation, however, because Bruce interjects with a new plan.
Steve, however, was not aware of Bruce's new plan. He was just kneejerk reacting to Vision's intention of self-sacrifice with a flat refusal to even consider it.
This really awkward moment where Steve poo-poos the idea of self-sacrifice seemed an ill fit for Steve Rogers, the man who would not hesitate to lay himself down on the wire. But it worked as a setup for the story's theme. Thanos is a person who would not hesitate to trade as many lives as necessary to achieve his goals. This line puts Steve in thematic opposition to Thanos as a person who respects the sanctity of life and doesn't believe in buying victory with blood.
But Infinity War didn't do a great job selling Steve's side of that thematic conflict. And now with Endgame finally out? Yeah, that's just a badly written OOC moment; there's no thematic conflict to be had here. Steve's talking out of his ass. Buying victory with blood is precisely what the Avengers do in this movie.
Edited by TobiasDrake on May 31st 2019 at 9:12:14 AM
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