Avengers Endgame spoiler thread

I don't think that it works this way. I think that there is one set timeline, but it is possible to branch it, but only if you actually take actions to do so. Hell, for all we know our current main line is just a branch of another line.

Well, we know that there is an entire Multiverse out there. So...are alternate timelines different from alternate Earths? Doesn't a new timeline imply a new Earth? (Say, Earth-616 has a change and now splits off into Earth-616 and Earth-617. That's a new timeline and a new Earth in the Multiverse, right?)

It is possible that alternate worlds are actually alternate timelines which split off so early that they are nearly unrecognizable. But I don't think so. The rules for them are too different. I mean Dormammu came from a world without time.

But maybe that world has no time because someone took the time stone away in it?

Gonna break this conversation with a new theory:

Natasha was revived when Steve put back the Soul Stone

Why not right? To take the stone means sacrificing something that is important to you, but if you put it back, that thing is returned. So when Steve put the stone back, she was spat back out. She decided not to return normally and let the world think she was dead for a bit so she could continue to do some awesome spy stuff on the sly, with her and Steve coming up with a way for her to get back without appearing to the others.

And that's my stupid theory that's better than stupid canon.

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New Theory: the Natasha we've been following all these years has been a Skrull imposter, and the real Black Widow is still working for the Red Room.

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

That runs into the problem people have with Gamora and Loki's 'resurrections'

The character is alive again but stripped of the experiences and development its not the same character people care about.

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Assuming Mysterio isn't completely full of shit (and I still totally think he's making everything up), in a situation where both timelines and a multiverse exist, timelines supercede universes, because multiverses are still in the same plane of existence / causality whereas timelines create new ones.

So basically, every alternate timeline would have an entire alternate copy of the multiverse inside it. But going into a multiverse doesn't create new timelines. Likewise, if you change the past rather than skew the timeline, you change the past for everyone in the multiverse (even though the vast majority of it will never feel the effect).

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 29th 2019 at 8:18:50 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

Unless, of course, the multiverse is the result of infinite different decisions made by everyone throughout time and space, in which case alternate timelines created by time travel are created as new universes in the multiverse.

Her thing was both. Bruce taking the Time Gem would a) create a branch in the timeline and b) leave that branch stranded without its defense weapon against Dormammu. He'd be creating a new timeline only to doom it.

Bruce's solution, in turn, was to cut the branches. No new timeline with no doom. No harm, no foul.

Citation needed on that. So far as I knew, the Loki show is a prequel about Loki's involvement with human affairs over the course of our history.

"As for narrative details (remember, Loki was murdered by Thanos in Avengers: Infinity War), it's being reported that the show will follow the shapeshifting trickster as he weaves through historical human events – becoming an influencer in many surprising situations.

Will he carve the iceberg that sunk the Titanic, or could Loki in fact be the chief visionary behind the great pyramids of Egypt? Probably not, but you get the idea."

I haven't heard anything about a change in plans.

The narrative function of Loki escaping with the Tesseract is pretty straightforward. Because Loki escapes with the Plot Coupon they came to 2012 for, the Avengers are put in a tight spot. Steve and Tony have to make the unplanned extra jump to S.H.I.E.L.D.'s bunker for a second shot at snagging the Space Gem.

This, in turn, provides the catalyst for Tony finally reconciling his feelings about his dad. It also sets up Steve rekindling his feelings for Peggy, leading into his ultimate decision in the epilogue. Loki's escape is a pretty important catalyst for a whole chapter of the film.

That's really all it is. I doubt we'll ever hear from that Loki again. Or that timeline, since per the Ancient One and Bruce's conversation it all coalesced back into the main timeline. Loki's escape played an important role in the Avengers' journey before being deleted from history.

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In that case, you're not dealing with a setting that has both a multiverse and alternate timelines at the same time. It's a very different situation with its own set of rules.

Edited by KnownUnknown on May 29th 2019 at 8:56:30 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

Okay the time travel debate has gotten really old.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Can we move on to something else, please?

Bite my shiny metal ass.

No, his solution was returning the Infinity Stones right after they were taken. The danger was always that a timeline without the Infinity Stones would descend into darkness, not that splitting the timeline at all was bad.

Here is the entire scene:

Look at what Bruce is saying: "So, chronologically, in that reality, it never left." He is going to return the Stones to the reality/timeline they belong to at the moment they left, so that those realities/timelines don't succumb to the forces of darkness, making those realities/timelines nearly identical to the reality from which they split.

Edited by alliterator on May 29th 2019 at 9:02:10 AM

Do you think Steve created Star Wars in the golden timeline?

My various fanfics.

@Tobias Drake And yet the Russo Brothers have stated that Captain America spent his days with Peggy Carter in an alternate timeline due to how the Time Travel mechanic was set up.

Neither the Hulk nor the Ancient One were aware that Tony and Scott screwed up with the Tesseract when they had their speech about Infinity Stones. The initial idea was to sneak in, take the stones without anyone noticing, use them, then bring them back to their respective timeline so that no one will miss them. Thanos coming into their future was not part of the plan. Loki escaping was not part of the plan.

And that's going into a little problem with the whole exact second theory you are putting up: How does Captain America put back the stones at the exact second when not all of the time travelers left at the exact same time? Rhodey travelled back with the Power Stone, but Nebula still tries to contact Clint and Natasha about Thanos, implying that they don't have to leave at the exact same moment (it's not like Rhodey contacted Clint if he had the Soul Stone). Likewise, Hulk is implied to have travel back in time on his own without meeting up with the others.

Thus it leads to a paradox scenario where the stones have to be either returned at an earlier point in time before their departure (where their past selves will still be present, leading to a rabbit hole of Alternate Timelines) or be missing more than a few seconds (which defeats the whole purpose of exact second).

Edited by Shadao on May 29th 2019 at 9:13:10 AM

Still doesn't explain why Cap is able to return the Stones to the same timelines he took them from, rather than creating yet another new timeline when he does so.

EDIT: Also, I'm assuming there's some sort of chronometer in everyone's suits to keep track of exactly what time they made their return trip. There has to be, otherwise how would they even know what minute they left, let alone what second? None of them are wearing watches.

Edited by RavenWilder on May 29th 2019 at 9:31:20 AM

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

Because the act of time travel itself doesn't cause split timelines, it's only when something changes that the timeline splits. And since Cap is reverting a change, rather than causing one, he doesn't cause another split.

Tony Stark created a "fully functioning Time-Space GPS." I'm pretty sure it recorded when and where they entered and left.

Edited by alliterator on May 29th 2019 at 9:32:24 AM

And in the original version of the split timeline, the Infinity Stones disappeared. Traveling back to the split timeline with the Stones should simply create a new timeline where they reappeared at the same instant, though in a different location and held by a different guy.

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko

No, because the Ancient One agrees that Bruce returning the Stones wouldn't create another split timeline. She would have said something if it had, like "Yes, one timeline would be saved, but then another timeline would be doomed, too." But she didn't, therefore we can assume that's not the case.

Especially because Cap would be entering the timeline at the same time as the others, just probably in a different place. So Bruce leaves with the Time Stone and then Steve immediately returns it to the Ancient One, without Bruce seeing. (Essentially, it would create a stable time loop within a split timeline. Which we also know is possible from AOS.)

It's really not that complicated...the first time they time travel the moment they change the timeline it splits, because not is no longer THEIR past. The second (or third or fourth) time they travel, they are just visitors from the future of an alternate reality, so the timeline doesn't split again. The splits only occur if either someone from the future travels back and changes time (because the reality of the time traveller would still exist) or if someone experiences/see what the future is supposed to look like and manages to change the stream. If someone hops from his timestream into another timestream, it doesn't create a branch because this visit was always part of that reality.

Yeah, it started off interesting, but now?

I'm a (socialist) professional writer serializing a WWII alternate history webnovel.

Maybe there's a split timeline where this debate is still interesting. Somehow, I doubt it.

"These 'no-nonsense' solutions of yours just don't hold water in a complex world of jet-powered apes and time travel."

Despite Word of God saying otherwise, I consider Season 6 of Agents of Shield to be part of an alternate timeline that was created when they defeated Talbot.

There's just no way it could take place in the same time frame as the movies, even if pre-snap.

If I had a nickel for every film where Emma Stone falls off a balcony... I'd only have two nickels, but weird that there's two of them.

I am in the "wait and see" mood. The writers have clearly planned SOMETHING.