X-Men: Dark Phoenix

Well, if you want to talk about the original storyline. Jean had tapped into a (nameless) primal universal force◊ that unlocked her full potential...like in this movie.

Edited by DevilMayhem666 on Sep 20th 2019 at 12:05:08 PM

It wasn't nameless. She names it, in fact, on that very page: the Phoenix. And that's also ignoring every single storyline that came after it.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 20th 2019 at 9:06:49 AM

“I am” Phoenix.

Edited by DevilMayhem666 on Sep 20th 2019 at 12:07:39 PM

"I am fire and life incarnate. I am the Phoenix."

The Phoenix is naming itself. Especially since later on, it's revealed that it didn't actually inhabit Jean, but actually replaced her.

One needs to separate intent from execution because it feels like intent is being defended separate from the final product (the execution).

The intent was to do a story about emotional damage and overcoming abuse, allegedly. They also wanted to adopt this grand cosmic epic and the two meshed like oil and water. The end result was dull, rather than egregiously offensive or incompetent. My earlier example was if they adapted Inferno, but it was 75 minutes of martial issues and 24 of fighting demons and possessed stuff, with a brief note that alludes to Madeline being the Goblin Queen.

It’s a whimper. The end result, regardless of intent was a whimper. That doesn’t mean the themes were ones they were wrong to tackle but the framing device for it was completely incompatible. And everyone except Sophie Turner wore it on their faces. They were done with these films, and if Disney asks them to come back, they’re going to politely decline.

Edited by Beatman1 on Sep 20th 2019 at 12:20:23 PM

Exactly.

That panel was long before that retcon.

What? No one was even talking about that.

Well, the movie wasn’t doing the clone thing but Claremont’s interpretation.

There is no "Claremont's interpretation." There is what was on the page and what wasn't. When Claremont wrote the book later on, he included the Phoenix Force and even added to it's mythology.

This is like making a Superman film where he doesn't fly and saying, "Well, in the original comics, he never flew, just jumped high. His flying was a later retcon." Flying is now one of his fundamental powers. The Phoenix Force is now one of the fundamental forces in the Marvel Universe.

That would depend on whether they're adapting Superman in general, or if they're adapting a specific story from The Golden Age of Comic Books where Superman didn't have the ability to fly.

Heck, perhaps the best screen portrayal of Superman comes from the early Superman Theatrical Cartoons, where he couldn't fly but merely (as the narrator famously intoned) "leap tall buildings in a single bound".

Edited by RavenWilder on Sep 20th 2019 at 11:26:22 AM

Dark Phoenix is not a specific throwback to the early '80s Claremont era. For one, it takes place in the '90s, has Morrison-era specific uniforms, and has an almost completely different story from Claremont's Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga. It's barely an adaptation of, well, anything.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 20th 2019 at 11:29:52 AM

Also, Tim Burton’s Batman was based largely on the Golden Age version who was a killer.

Edited by DevilMayhem666 on Sep 20th 2019 at 3:16:18 PM

Just saying "he's a Batman who kills" does not mean he was based on the Golden Age Batman. Hell, the BVS Batman killed and he definitely wasn't based on the Golden Age Batman (he was based on the Dark Knight Returns Batman).

Edited by alliterator on Sep 20th 2019 at 12:33:41 PM

Wasn’t that forced on him by Jim Shooter?

Not really. That was John Byrne, who resurrected Jean in Fantastic Four #286. But comics are a collaborative medium, so Claremont had to roll with it.

Shooter forced Claremont to kill Jean in the first place; Claremont's original ending had her surviving with a "psychic lobotomy," but Shooter felt she deserved a stronger punishment for destroying an entire race of aliens.

Claremont later introduced Rachel Summers, who became the second Phoenix and wielded the Phoenix Force, as well as introducing other things about the Phoenix via Classic X-Men.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 20th 2019 at 3:14:23 AM

Now that we’ve established that the movie was following Chris Claremont’s writing of Jean’s transformation into Phoenix, let’s move on to something I came across on another forum that I find very interesting. It’s an interview Simon Kinberg had with Screen Crush way back in 2014 before the release of Days of Future Past, saying that it was used to give him a second chance at the Dark Phoenix story.

https://screencrush.com/simon-kinberg-x-men-days-of-future-past/

Stated this again back in May of this year to Screen Rant

https://screenrant.com/xmen-dark-phoenix-days-future-past-connect-director/

There is an example of something that was set-up in DOFP, that was paid off in this movie.

https://www.reddit.com/r/xmen/comments/cyrwac/professor_x_saved_his_younger_self_from_making/

I remember reading a review calling the movie pointless. Guess this means it wasn’t.

Edited by DevilMayhem666 on Sep 21st 2019 at 8:06:54 AM

Edited by alliterator on Sep 21st 2019 at 5:11:50 AM

If there's any satisfaction to be had here is that hopefully Kinberg has finally gotten through that head of his that he can't make a Phoenix movie for crap.

The fact this wound up being his last & most final chance rather helps set the point. He had 2 chances, both of which wound up being complete blunders & he will never have another opportunity again for the rest od his life.

Only thing left is for Marvel to do their own Phoenix movie & make Kinberg look even more like a putz than he already is.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 21st 2019 at 5:23:51 AM

Meh, the ending Days of Future Past showed that Jean didn’t go down a dark path in the new timeline anyway. Jean destroying a planet like in the original or her vision in Apocalypse wouldn’t line up with that. It was about her taking control of her power thanks Xavier believing in her in this timeline, in contrast to the original timeline.

I actually like that twist to the story. Reminds me of what Captain Marvel did with the Skrulls.

It’s very surprising how people forgot about how Days of Future Past ended.

Edited by DevilMayhem666 on Sep 21st 2019 at 8:26:34 AM

I didn't forget how DOTP ended. But the ending of DOTP doesn't suddenly make Dark Phoenix a better movie.

In the new timeline, it's obvious that Professor X didn't put the same power blocks on her, hence why she has a lot more power in Apocalypse. But he also messes with her mind, erasing memories. Which means he didn't learn a damn thing from his older self.

Also, there are ways to have the story without Jean 1) destroying a planet and 2) dying and still keep the cosmic stuff intact. It just needed to be, what's the phrase, ah, right, better written.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 21st 2019 at 5:33:51 AM

Actually, Phoenix not being the focus in X3 was not his call. Says so in the interview I linked. Here is the quote:

What happened was that he wrote a draft for X3 and that was heavily rewritten by Zak Penn due to studio mandate because they thought it was too dark and expensive. Writer of the original Dark Phoenix Chris Claremont(who had a cameo in X3 and wrote the novel to it) confirmed this.

https://www.insider.com/dark-phoenix-comic-writer-on-hollywood-movie-adaptations-2019-8

You got the writer of the original Dark Phoenix defending Kinberg and he HATES X3.

No, that is exactly what happened.

Edited by DevilMayhem666 on Sep 21st 2019 at 9:19:20 AM

The aliens were originally Skrulls(Shi’Ar back when it was a two-parter from what I’ve read). Them being the D’Bari was a late minute change hence why their name is only mentioned once in the entire film.

The D’Bari are actually Avengers characters, so Fox wouldn’t have had the right to use them until Disney officially owned them in March.

Edited by ManOfSin on Sep 22nd 2019 at 11:44:56 AM

Oy. That stuff has NOT aged well when you realize what kind of jerks Singer and Ratner turned out to be later on.

Geez, everything about Dark Phoenix just screams last minute, doesn't it?

Wasn’t the Skrull planet destroyed by Galactus in the comics? I guess that means it’s suppose to be Fox’s Galactus. I mean it is a space cloud after all.