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X-Men: Dark Phoenix

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Sep 20th 2019 at 9:04:28 AM

Well, if you want to talk about the original storyline. Jean had tapped into a (nameless) primal universal force that unlocked her full potential...like in this movie.

Edited by DevilMayhem666 on Sep 20th 2019 at 12:05:08 PM

alliterator How dare you? from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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Sep 20th 2019 at 9:05:37 AM

[up] It wasn't nameless. She names it, in fact, on that very page: the Phoenix. And that's also ignoring every single storyline that came after it.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 20th 2019 at 9:06:49 AM

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Sep 20th 2019 at 9:07:24 AM

“I am” Phoenix.

Edited by DevilMayhem666 on Sep 20th 2019 at 12:07:39 PM

alliterator How dare you? from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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Sep 20th 2019 at 9:10:44 AM

"I am fire and life incarnate. I am the Phoenix."

The Phoenix is naming itself. Especially since later on, it's revealed that it didn't actually inhabit Jean, but actually replaced her.

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Sep 20th 2019 at 9:19:08 AM

One needs to separate intent from execution because it feels like intent is being defended separate from the final product (the execution).

The intent was to do a story about emotional damage and overcoming abuse, allegedly. They also wanted to adopt this grand cosmic epic and the two meshed like oil and water. The end result was dull, rather than egregiously offensive or incompetent. My earlier example was if they adapted Inferno, but it was 75 minutes of martial issues and 24 of fighting demons and possessed stuff, with a brief note that alludes to Madeline being the Goblin Queen.

It’s a whimper. The end result, regardless of intent was a whimper. That doesn’t mean the themes were ones they were wrong to tackle but the framing device for it was completely incompatible. And everyone except Sophie Turner wore it on their faces. They were done with these films, and if Disney asks them to come back, they’re going to politely decline.

Edited by Beatman1 on Sep 20th 2019 at 12:20:23 PM

"That's right kid. Never play an ace when a two will do."
alliterator How dare you? from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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Sep 20th 2019 at 9:20:42 AM

[up] Exactly. [tup]

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Sep 20th 2019 at 9:29:34 AM

[up][up][up]

That panel was long before that retcon.

[up][up]

What? No one was even talking about that.

alliterator How dare you? from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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Sep 20th 2019 at 9:39:41 AM

That panel was long before that retcon.
It doesn't matter.

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Sep 20th 2019 at 10:26:17 AM

Well, the movie wasn’t doing the clone thing but Claremont’s interpretation.

alliterator How dare you? from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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Sep 20th 2019 at 11:17:27 AM

There is no "Claremont's interpretation." There is what was on the page and what wasn't. When Claremont wrote the book later on, he included the Phoenix Force and even added to it's mythology.

This is like making a Superman film where he doesn't fly and saying, "Well, in the original comics, he never flew, just jumped high. His flying was a later retcon." Flying is now one of his fundamental powers. The Phoenix Force is now one of the fundamental forces in the Marvel Universe.

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
RavenWilder Raven Wilder
Raven Wilder
Sep 20th 2019 at 11:24:40 AM

That would depend on whether they're adapting Superman in general, or if they're adapting a specific story from The Golden Age of Comic Books where Superman didn't have the ability to fly.

Heck, perhaps the best screen portrayal of Superman comes from the early Superman Theatrical Cartoons, where he couldn't fly but merely (as the narrator famously intoned) "leap tall buildings in a single bound".

Edited by RavenWilder on Sep 20th 2019 at 11:26:22 AM

"It takes an idiot to do cool things, that's why it's cool" - Haruhara Haruko
alliterator How dare you? from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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Sep 20th 2019 at 11:28:53 AM

That would depend on whether they're adapting Superman in general, or if they're adapting a specific story from The Golden Age of Comic Books where Superman didn't have the ability to fly.
The only stories that don't have him fly anymore would be specific throwbacks to The Golden Age — like the upcoming Superman vs. the Klan comic.

Dark Phoenix is not a specific throwback to the early '80s Claremont era. For one, it takes place in the '90s, has Morrison-era specific uniforms, and has an almost completely different story from Claremont's Phoenix and Dark Phoenix Saga. It's barely an adaptation of, well, anything.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 20th 2019 at 11:29:52 AM

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Sep 20th 2019 at 12:15:52 PM

[up][up]

Also, Tim Burton’s Batman was based largely on the Golden Age version who was a killer.

Edited by DevilMayhem666 on Sep 20th 2019 at 3:16:18 PM

alliterator How dare you? from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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Sep 20th 2019 at 12:33:05 PM

Also, Tim Burton’s Batman was based largely on the Golden Age version who was a killer.
He really wasn't. Tim Burton's Batman was based on the Bronze Age stories by Dennis O'Neil. Burton's Batman killed, yes, but generally off-screen and without the use of guns (which the Golden Age Batman used).

Just saying "he's a Batman who kills" does not mean he was based on the Golden Age Batman. Hell, the BVS Batman killed and he definitely wasn't based on the Golden Age Batman (he was based on the Dark Knight Returns Batman).

Edited by alliterator on Sep 20th 2019 at 12:33:41 PM

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Sep 20th 2019 at 2:35:32 PM

he included the Phoenix Force and even added to it's mythology.

Wasn’t that forced on him by Jim Shooter?

alliterator How dare you? from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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Sep 20th 2019 at 3:12:14 PM

[up] Not really. That was John Byrne, who resurrected Jean in Fantastic Four #286. But comics are a collaborative medium, so Claremont had to roll with it.

Shooter forced Claremont to kill Jean in the first place; Claremont's original ending had her surviving with a "psychic lobotomy," but Shooter felt she deserved a stronger punishment for destroying an entire race of aliens.

Claremont later introduced Rachel Summers, who became the second Phoenix and wielded the Phoenix Force, as well as introducing other things about the Phoenix via Classic X-Men.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 20th 2019 at 3:14:23 AM

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Sep 21st 2019 at 5:05:59 PM

Now that we’ve established that the movie was following Chris Claremont’s writing of Jean’s transformation into Phoenix, let’s move on to something I came across on another forum that I find very interesting. It’s an interview Simon Kinberg had with Screen Crush way back in 2014 before the release of Days of Future Past, saying that it was used to give him a second chance at the Dark Phoenix story.

I wanted The Dark Phoenix story, but I regret where the movie ended up. And so, weirdly, this was sort of my opportunity, a little like the characters in 'Days of Future Past' going back and improving their younger selves with the lessons they've learned as wiser men. It's sort of a chance for me to go back and do differently what I did ten years ago on 'X3.'

https://screencrush.com/simon-kinberg-x-men-days-of-future-past/

Stated this again back in May of this year to Screen Rant

Kinberg also stated during the interview that working on Days of Future Past actually helped to conceive the idea for Dark Phoenix. He said, "I actually would say that the Dark Phoenix idea was was set up in the end of Days of Future Past. In changing the timeline of Days of Future Past, part of the reason I did that was I wanted a chance to tell the Dark Phoenix story in a more fulsome way where it's really like the full Dark Phoenix story and focuses on Jean's story different than X-Men: The Last Stand." So it seems Kinberg had plans for Dark Phoenix long before the film's conception. He added, "My vision for it, I think, even going back to Days of Future Past, is pretty consistent, because really what I felt when I was thinking about doing eventually a Dark Phoenix story was the idea that we would be telling Jean's story. That we would be really focused. That we would narrow the scope of the film down even though there's an intergalactic element and a scale and spectacle that you expect from these movies." In other words, while the film does culminate the current cycle of X-Men films, it is still very much Jean's story at the film's core.

https://screenrant.com/xmen-dark-phoenix-days-future-past-connect-director/

There is an example of something that was set-up in DOFP, that was paid off in this movie.

https://www.reddit.com/r/xmen/comments/cyrwac/professor_x_saved_his_younger_self_from_making/

I remember reading a review calling the movie pointless. Guess this means it wasn’t.

Edited by DevilMayhem666 on Sep 21st 2019 at 8:06:54 AM

alliterator How dare you? from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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Sep 21st 2019 at 5:09:31 PM

Now that we’ve established that the movie was following Chris Claremont’s writing of Jean’s transformation into Phoenix
It wasn't. Also, the movie was pointless. The fact that he wanted to "narrow the scope of the film down" meant that he really didn't understand the Dark Phoenix Saga in the first place.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 21st 2019 at 5:11:50 AM

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
slimcoder Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Sep 21st 2019 at 5:23:25 PM

If there's any satisfaction to be had here is that hopefully Kinberg has finally gotten through that head of his that he can't make a Phoenix movie for crap.

The fact this wound up being his last & most final chance rather helps set the point. He had 2 chances, both of which wound up being complete blunders & he will never have another opportunity again for the rest od his life.

Only thing left is for Marvel to do their own Phoenix movie & make Kinberg look even more like a putz than he already is.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 21st 2019 at 5:23:51 AM

Can you see all of me? Walk into my mystery. Do you remember me? Capture you or set you free I am all. I am all... I am all of me
Sep 21st 2019 at 5:25:39 PM

Meh, the ending Days of Future Past showed that Jean didn’t go down a dark path in the new timeline anyway. Jean destroying a planet like in the original or her vision in Apocalypse wouldn’t line up with that. It was about her taking control of her power thanks Xavier believing in her in this timeline, in contrast to the original timeline.

I actually like that twist to the story. Reminds me of what Captain Marvel did with the Skrulls.

It’s very surprising how people forgot about how Days of Future Past ended.

Edited by DevilMayhem666 on Sep 21st 2019 at 8:26:34 AM

alliterator How dare you? from Southern California Relationship Status: THIS CONCEPT OF 'WUV' CONFUSES AND INFURIATES US!
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Sep 21st 2019 at 5:32:10 PM

I didn't forget how DOTP ended. But the ending of DOTP doesn't suddenly make Dark Phoenix a better movie.

It was about her taking control of her power thanks Xavier believing in her in this timeline, in contrast to the original timeline.
From what I recall, Jean didn't go evil in The Last Stand because Professor X "didn't believe in her." Professor X had put power blocks on her as a child, but what turned her evil was...pretty much nothing at all. She just died and then came back evil.

In the new timeline, it's obvious that Professor X didn't put the same power blocks on her, hence why she has a lot more power in Apocalypse. But he also messes with her mind, erasing memories. Which means he didn't learn a damn thing from his older self.

Also, there are ways to have the story without Jean 1) destroying a planet and 2) dying and still keep the cosmic stuff intact. It just needed to be, what's the phrase, ah, right, better written.

Edited by alliterator on Sep 21st 2019 at 5:33:51 AM

"What, you think I won't fight a dinosaur? Are you crazy? All I want to do is fight dinosaurs." — Squirrel Girl
Sep 21st 2019 at 5:54:46 PM

[up][up]

If there's any satisfaction to be had here is that hopefully Kinberg has finally gotten through that head of his that he can't make a Phoenix movie for crap.

The fact this wound up being his last & most final chance rather helps set the point. He had 2 chances, both of which wound up being complete blunders & he will never have another opportunity again for the rest od his life.

Only thing left is for Marvel to do their own Phoenix movie & make Kinberg look even more like a putz than he already is.

Actually, Phoenix not being the focus in X3 was not his call. Says so in the interview I linked. Here is the quote:

What do you regret?

I regret that The Dark Phoenix story wasn't the primary story of the movie.

But that wasn't your choice.

It wasn't my choice.

What happened was that he wrote a draft for X3 and that was heavily rewritten by Zak Penn due to studio mandate because they thought it was too dark and expensive. Writer of the original Dark Phoenix Chris Claremont(who had a cameo in X3 and wrote the novel to it) confirmed this.

"The Last Stand" came with its own behind-the-scenes drama.

Even after "X2: X-Men United," which teased the Dark Phoenix storyline in the final shot, Claremont said that he asked director Bryan Singer, "How are you going to make this less than two films?"

Singer, who directed 2000's "X-Men" and its 2003 sequel, "X2," never even turned it into one film. He left the third "X-Men" movie to take on Warner Bros.' "Superman Returns" in 2006.

Claremont blamed Singer's departure on a "long negotiation, if you want to use that word, between him and Fox. Neither side was prepared to give."

"He got a better offer to do Superman, which is something he apparently wanted to do forever," Claremont said. "And everything sort of cascaded from there ... ['The Last Stand'] lost two directors [Singer and Matthew Vaughn, who later directed 2011's 'X-Men: First Class.'] They brought in Brett Ratner. He shot it in lickity-split time. But Simon [Kinberg, who also cowrote 'The Last Stand'] and the other writers weren't allowed to change anything."

https://www.insider.com/dark-phoenix-comic-writer-on-hollywood-movie-adaptations-2019-8

You got the writer of the original Dark Phoenix defending Kinberg and he HATES X3.

[up]

From what I recall, Jean didn't go evil in The Last Stand because Professor X "didn't believe in her."

No, that is exactly what happened.

Edited by DevilMayhem666 on Sep 21st 2019 at 9:19:20 AM

Sep 22nd 2019 at 8:40:02 AM

Since the Phoenix is what destroyed their planet in the comics

The aliens were originally Skrulls(Shi’Ar back when it was a two-parter from what I’ve read). Them being the D’Bari was a late minute change hence why their name is only mentioned once in the entire film.

The D’Bari are actually Avengers characters, so Fox wouldn’t have had the right to use them until Disney officially owned them in March.

Edited by ManOfSin on Sep 22nd 2019 at 11:44:56 AM

TargetmasterJoe Much more than meets the eye! from The City, USA Relationship Status: I like big bots and I can not lie
Much more than meets the eye!
Sep 22nd 2019 at 8:54:04 AM

[up][up] Oy. That stuff has NOT aged well when you realize what kind of jerks Singer and Ratner turned out to be later on.

[up] Geez, everything about Dark Phoenix just screams last minute, doesn't it?

Status: Evil beware, I have Twitter!
Sep 22nd 2019 at 9:33:50 AM

[up][up]

Wasn’t the Skrull planet destroyed by Galactus in the comics? I guess that means it’s suppose to be Fox’s Galactus. I mean it is a space cloud after all.


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