We know that's untrue because we see her have a confrontation, and we see that her first response to hearing "you're under arrest" is to go "lol, the NYPD couldn't stop me. What can you do?" Her first reaction is demonstrably not to avoid or diffuse the conflict.
In regards to your PM (and I have to reiterate: if you have something to say in regards to the conversation, say it in the conversation), this isn't a flaw competition between her and Peter. If you're judging Gwen's worth as a character based on whether she was more or less flaws or makes more or less mistakes than Peter, then honestly there's your problem. "Peter has done the same things," even if true, in no may refutes anything anyone has been saying.
It's especially a bad comparison at that because Peter is practically defined by his mistakes.
Knowing who she was (thus confirming her relationship with her supposed victim, the same thing the showing the friendship bracelet) was enough for Quake, who is a cop (albeit a government one) and Patriot's partner. Whether it would be enough for Patriot and her father is a complete unknown, because Gwen never tries to make them aware of that connection.
Hell, Quake only finds that out by way of deductive reasoning, not because Gwen made an effort to share that info (and in part information that the others weren't privy to). If we bring up the friendship bracelet, it has to be noted that - again - she only brought that out as an absolute last resort.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 26th 2018 at 2:12:49 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
You realize that would require exposing her secret identity, right? The problem with that should be obvious.
People never say Peter has to expose his identity when he's been framed for murder.
Now you're just missing my point. Which was that Peter is never seen as being in the wrong for being snarky.
Making it an issue with Gwen seems biased.
And i wanted to move it pm to not further derail the thread.
Oh and i just rewatched the shorts and no, at not point was Patriot willing to listen to Gwen. He was dismissive from the start.
Edited by Cortez on Aug 26th 2018 at 5:22:31 AM
Note that Peter is often criticized - even in universe - for holding onto his secret identity like a vice even in situations where it would be far less damaging to let certain people in on it. IIRC, the only time it's ever been an actual problem for him is when he let everyone know who he is.
More to the point (since this isn't, again, a competition between her and Peter), also important to note that this movie explicitly portrays people on the side of angels finding out about her secret identity as an entirely good thing, and the first real steps she has (if completely accidental in one case) towards clearing her name.
At the end of Initiation, there are no negative side effects from Quake finding out who she is or Miss Marvel and Squirrel Girl knowing that she was a close personal friend to her supposed victim. So no, the problem with that isn't particularly obvious, because the plot is clearly written with the belief that it's something that needed to happen.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 26th 2018 at 2:27:00 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
And you're ignoring all the times people finding out about a heroes identity was a bad thing for the hero and the heroes loved ones. Spider-Man also gives us several examples of that.
And you forget that Gwen doesn't know these people personally and had no reason to just trust them with her secrets.
It would be ridiculous if she just told them her secret identity. Especially since it's not a guarantee that they would think she was innocent.
Patriot would probably just think she killed her friend.
Edited by Cortez on Aug 26th 2018 at 5:32:00 AM
This isn't those stories, so that's by and large irrelevant. The fact that this story explicitly has people finding out her identity as a good thing doesn't support your attempt to claim that in this story, people finding out her identity would be a bad thing.
But regardless, I actually did already address it:
That, to note, is a reference to Civil War.
Overall however, Spider-Man also has it as a major plot point across pretty much all mediums that Peter creates problems by keeping his secrets, which results in those problems being exacerbated to the point where revealing those secrets no longer fixes the problems themselves. Most of the issues he runs into in regards to sharing his secret identity are the result of his not sharing his identity sooner - most notably in regards to Harry Osborn pretty much across the board.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 26th 2018 at 2:34:44 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Only one person found out Gwen's secret identity. And it's someone that has looking for Sheath too.
It wouldn't work if it was Patriot.
And again, remember that in universe Gwen has no reason to trust people she doesn't know with her secret identity.
It wouldn't make sense for her to just randomly reveal it.
Yeah, that's a complete assumption. You're outright making up, or at least projecting, plot points at this point: there's zero indication that Patriot would completely dismiss her being the girl he was actually brought in on behalf of (Captain Stacy makes it clear when telling them everything that his primary reason for bringing them in was Gwen's devastation in regards to her best friend's death) if given the chance, and it assumes both a level of callousness and irresponsible policing in him that his characterization does not actually reflect.
Especially since Quake, Patriot's partner, did have her perception of the case changed by learning that. You can't generalize Patriot and the cops while conveniently ignoring the fact that Quake is a cop, or that she's Patriot's partner.
Also note that, since they are partners, even if he isn't privy to the same information she is she could easily and immediately make him privy to it. He's not a separate entity who would be unable to understand the things Quake does. Neither is Chief Stacy on that note, who is Gwen's actual father.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 26th 2018 at 2:56:09 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Except he does dismiss her claims of innocence.
He's also dismissive when he hears talking to herself after she able to convince Ms.Marvel and Squirrel Girl she was innocent of Kevin's murder.
So you can't say there's Zero indication.
And Speaking of Ms.Marvel and Squirrel Girl, even before encountering Gwen they discuss the possibility that she's not responsible for Kevin's murder. Which shows they are more open minded.
Edited by Cortez on Aug 26th 2018 at 5:56:26 AM
Already addressed:
Also, dismissing her nonspecific claims of innocence on the grounds that everyone says that when they're cornered, and your claim that he would just assume without reservation that she murdered her own best friend if her true identity was made clear are two very different things. Especially since Quake goes from presumably believing she's guilty to willing to believe she's not when the same information is given to her.
But, just to bring things back on topic, Gwen doesn't actually have to reveal her secret identity in order to at least try to explain her situation. The fact that she never even attempts to do so until she's in a situation where she has basically no choice but to reveal her secret identity is the point being made about her characterization, not the idea that she has to do so in the first place.
The thing being discussed here isn't whether anyone specifically would be willing to believe her (though the movie does make it rather clear that they would if given reason), but whether Gwen is willing to make people believe her in the first place. When it comes to clearing her name, she's something of her own worst enemy.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 26th 2018 at 3:04:29 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Except she does tell that she didn't kill Kevin, she can't say more than that without revealing her identity. That obviously wouldn't be enough to convince anyone.
Plus she's looking for the real killer herself. People trying to catch her get in the way of that.
Again, that's only made clear with Ms.Marvel and Squirrel Girl who discussed the possibility that Gwen might not be guilty before they encounter her.
Edited by Cortez on Aug 26th 2018 at 6:04:45 AM
As noted, she only does that after spurring the fight and making herself look like a villain. Hence Patriot response being along the lines of "everyone does that when they get caught," because so far in his presence she's acted little different than the average supervillain.
She also only ever tells anyone she's hunting the real killer when, again, they force it out of her.
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
You mean after being forced into a fight which she tried to avoid. Again, she never initiates these fights.
Again, after rewatching the shorts Patriot was clearly the least likely to listen to Gwen. It's not "projection" or "making up plot points", it's right there.
You didn't say that Patriot was difficult to convince, you claimed that if he found out who she was, he wouldn't change his position at all and just assume she killed her best friend.
Which, yes, is a very specific conjecture that's given no evidence in the plot itself. It's pure speculation, and again, is countered by the fact that someone in his exact position had a more positive reaction to the same information.
Likewise, there's a difference between her not initiating fights and your claim that her first reaction is to avoid or diffuse them. Regardless of who starts the fight, who know that's not her first reaction because she doesn't actually react that way (and in fact reacts by provoking Patriot further in a way that, from his perspective, confirms her guilt).
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 26th 2018 at 3:34:53 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Yes i did say he was difficult to convince and that is seen on screen, it's not conjecture.
And we do see Gwen try to avoid fights, so that's also not conjecture.
Edited by Cortez on Aug 26th 2018 at 6:43:44 AM
You seem to have misplaced the remaining context to that sentence.
Which, yes, is a very specific conjecture that's given no evidence in the plot itself.
Again, if you're going to quote me, you should probably include the entire thing you're trying to respond to. Since this isn't the first time you've done this, it's honestly starting to look like you only cherry picking parts you can justify out of context, despite it being inaccurate.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 26th 2018 at 3:38:39 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
And again, it is seen in the short themselves that he's not willing to give her the benefit of the doubt.
Addressed:
In short, you're conflating your conjecture with what's actually on the screen, when what you're actually doing is speculating. We don't see him react to her real identity, so we can't just assume he'd ignore. We can, however, judge how someone in his position might react based on how Quake reacts, because she is also in that position.
And again, you're moving away from the point. Even if what you're trying to claim is true, we're not talking about the content of Patriot's character. We're talking about what Gwen herself is prone to do or not. Whether her not Patriot might have believed her if she explained herself is moot, because - again - Gwen isn't interested in doing that. She isn't the type to try and profess her innocence until she has no options left.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 26th 2018 at 3:43:40 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Except we can do that because Quake and Patriot are completely different characters.
Quake was shown to be more flexible and open minded.
And of course Gwen isn't interested in that, because finding Sheath is her priority.
Edited by Cortez on Aug 26th 2018 at 6:44:52 AM
Quake, to note, is more flexible after the point where she's given information that allows her to be more flexible.
Which isn't much relevant. The claim you're trying to make, from what I understand, is that she isn't the type to fight first and explain herself later - and it's been been pointed out to you that that's not really true.
Whether she was other priorities in addition to protecting her innocence doesn't change that. It might explain it, but it doesn't change that. And it doesn't have to. It's a character flaw. It's there for her to ultimately learn from.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 26th 2018 at 3:51:37 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
But her instinct isn't to fight first, it's to avoid the confrontation all together.
And for maybe the sixth time between myself and Tobias, we know for a fact that that's untrue, because we see her first reaction onscreen and it's not to avoid conflict at all. She's characteristically standoffish (at least as Ghost Spider), not evasive.
I'm not really sure why this is such a line in the sand.
Edited by KnownUnknown on Aug 26th 2018 at 3:52:21 AM
"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.
Because it is true, the first thing she always tries is to web swing away. Then she's attacked as she tries to swing away.
She doesn't throw the first punch.
Any thoughts about the movie?
Sorry, but you're wrong. Because that's exactly what it is. It is that the one pursuing would not listen to her. It's the same as when Peter is at odds with the cops.
And you forget Squirrel Girl and Kamala only believed her because of her friendship bracelet, which would not be sufficient proof for someone like Patriot or the cops.
That's just not true. Her first resort is to avoid confrontation altogether. That's abundantly clear. To say otherwise is just false.
Edited by Cortez on Aug 26th 2018 at 2:47:15 PM