Pillars of Eternity II: Deadfire, by Obsidian Entertainment

So, um... Wasn't Bekarna a Huana before? Maybe they never said that, but I was thinking all the way through that maybe Maura and Bekarna got their memories swapped and that spotting that thread was going to be important, somehow. I need to try some of the conversations with better skills, too.

On side note what happens if Maura survives is nice Mushroom island!

Anyway, gotta say that all History book puzzle book tidbits are really interesting. Like besides kindoms Engwithans wiped out, Ukaizo and Yezuha were their equals and apparently Skaen was, or was based on, a rebel "hero"(I think game used that term in one of puzzle riddles?) who joined his opponent when he was defeated)

I took Vatnir along on my third run through the DLC and his comments were great. I think he might be my second favorite sidekick.

So I haven't tried the new Megabosses yet, but the first two fights are big on zoning, very MMO-style. Belranga's map is all about bottlenecking since she's so huge —she'll block off her own spawn if you position yourself well, and then you just focus all your attention on her since she gets a buff for each spiderling you kill, which adds up to the point where she can one-shot Eder if you just let the AI kill all the spiderlings it wants. With Hauani O Whe, you just need really good Penetration for the first ooze, and then you need to make absolutely sure you interrupt it when it tries to Merge — a monk or a few characters with the crossbow modal are good for that.

I didn't take Vatnir, I'll have to get around to that. The DLC has really redeemed the sidekicks from what they were like before — they really do feel more like fully-fledged characters, even the ones who don't have their own dialogue trees. Was still totally expecting to learn more about Rekke and Yezuha.

My favourite reveal was probably the one about how the orlans used to have their own "empire" based on communal cooperation, like a communist nation that worked — and as a big middle finger to the in-universe idea of orlans as somehow less civilized than other kith.

Edited by Unsung on Dec 20th 2018 at 1:32:55 PM

I heard Rekke has sweet moment if you bring him to Ukaizo(all of sidekicks now have dialog at Ukaizo, yes even Mirke and Vatnir)

Edited by SpookyMask on Dec 17th 2018 at 8:00:49 PM

I noticed that with Fassina, I should just load up a save and take the ones I haven't seen back to Ukaizo. I've been wondering if they were going to do that since Beast of Winter — it just seems like it would make sense given the time you spend getting to know them.

Rekke's 'farewell' scene is both sweet and intriguing. Apparently Yezuha is not a place he thinks we should be eager to visit.

Edited by Tarlonniel on Dec 17th 2018 at 6:47:56 AM

Makes sense if Yezuha, Ukaizo and Engwithan were on equal power level and Engiwthans saw some need to hide Yezuha's existence

So heads up about Forbidden Sanctum: It actually does seem to matter whether you do collections or archive first, at least it alters situation when you run into Maura for first time.(whether you see her alive or infested)

Also, I was confused by forums mentioning Godseed quest and now I finally realized it that only way to get said Godseed quest is if you resolve quests in favor of same archmage twice

Ooooh. That's why I never got it. Ah well.

If you go to the Stacks first, you get to see Maura alive and then fight Fyonlecg directly, whereas if you go through Collections/the Enclosures and kill the Memory Hoarder, you end up fighting the Oracle instead. It seems like there should probably be some way getting on the Oracle's good side can be turned to your advantage, though I'm not sure what it is so far.

Are there only two chances to side with an archmage? The spell you cast in the Enclosures and what you do with Llengrath's memories?

Edited by Unsung on Dec 20th 2018 at 7:49:57 AM

I gotta admit, I don't really like Tayn much. He's an overly privileged arrogant ass even by Archmage standards. His interest in messing around with a god's body just to see what might happen is startlingly irresponsible and reckless.

Llengrath seems like the only one who actually takes the responsibilities seriously. And hey, she's a pretty good sport considering I killed her in the previous game.

Edited by M84 on Dec 20th 2018 at 9:56:10 PM

Oh, I don't know how startling it is, but it's up there as far as being irresponsible goes. Tayn's thing is pretty much being as annoying as humanly possible.

It's telling that pretty much everyone finds him insufferable, with the possible exception of the Watcher.

Yeah, I went with his idea of filling the prisoners' heads with random memories but that's mainly because I'm not really keen on the idea of mass murder.

Neither solution seemed like a good idea to me, so I just ignored that quest. Thankfully you can finish the DLC without completing it.

Neither is anywhere near perfect, but abandoning them to continued experimentation by the Hand Occult still seemed worse to me. But YMMV, of course.

That's the choice I went with on my main, and I'd even say that the supposed downside of blabbing secrets kith was not meant to know wasn't a huge objection for me. Sure, harm might come of that knowledge being dispersed, but harm has already definitely come through the Hand Occult keeping it hidden. Plus there are few other factors you learn about over the course of the DLC that made me happy with my choice. I understand Llengrath's position, and knowing with certainty that reincarnation exists, you might be sparing them suffering — but you don't know they can't find happiness in this life, and you don't know that they'll be born into happiness in the next.

It's all very individualist vs. collectivist between the two of them.

Edited by Unsung on Dec 20th 2018 at 7:38:13 AM

Tayin is kinda Chaotic Neutral asshole yeah. Besides him just haphazardly making everyone's memories mixed and then including unconscious idea to go blab about the secrets, if you give him Llengrath's books, what he does is really assholish. He without permission edits it. His explanation is partly 1) "it includes some unconventional ideas" 2) it would be hilarious

There is also what he says he wants to do with Godseed(I haven't seen Llengrath's version yet because I would need to load save from start of the dlc and redo the whole thing, besides Llengrath's version is bugged before next patch so you can't actually resolve it) is just as irresponsible: He wants to just see what happens(or in his own words "make a garden")

(but yeah, its just matter of "what you do with prisoners and what you do with Llengrath's memory books", if you resolve quest twice in favor of one of the archmages, they explain the REAL reason why they are having an argument and what they are doing in the Sanctum which is said Godseed)

Edited by SpookyMask on Dec 20th 2018 at 4:46:08 PM

I didn't get the Godseed on my main because I wasn't willing to screw with something that clearly meant so much to Llengrath just for the raw entertainment value. Maybe next character.

Edited by Unsung on Dec 20th 2018 at 7:45:40 AM

Yeah, after I saw that Tayin was willing to screw over something that important for shit and giggles, I decided that after next patch comes out I'm gonna redo whole thing in Llengrath's favor and see the godseed sidequest in full

Also, the theoretical chance they could be reincarnated into a better life is kind of shot to hell with the main game's ending.

Another point against Tayn is that he really doesn't deserve to be an Archmage. Heck, he only has one actual spell (albeit a pretty powerful one) to his name that you can use. Compare that with Llengrath who has nine. It's not even a spell he made after due diligence — he just messed around a random.

Yeah, I do generally find Llengrath more likable. Except for the whole mass murder thing.

Edited by M84 on Dec 20th 2018 at 11:52:06 PM

On side note on archmagi jerkiness, even Concelhaut was a pet the dog moment towards Bekarna(also he calls archmagi tax evaders )

BTW, did I understand it right that whenever new Llengrath is "appointed", each new one has to do test to became archmage AGAIN? Wouldn't that suggest there has been at least 9 Llengraths if all of them had to come up with new spell

Anyhoo, on mercy kill side of argument, you could argue that prisoners were already dead because they had all their memories and personalities taken, so while Tayin's method shuffles memories in back randomly, as they would never get their own memories back(also ending slide pretty much says that some of prisoners were primordials and wilders meaning that some of them had for example xaurip memories mixed with kith memories) even if they somehow got happy lives afterwards, the original person with their original memories is gone forever. Hence every person aftewards would be a "new really messed up" person

Edited by SpookyMask on Dec 20th 2018 at 6:13:27 PM

Yeah, that's kind of the thing — superficially Llengrath is giving you the Dark Side solution here, but in a very real sense, the Hand Occult already murdered these people a long time ago. These are ideas that Obsidian keeps coming back to: that it's not our memories or our souls that make us who we are but rather our actions, and that sometimes sparing someone purely for the sake of sparing them isn't a kindness in and of itself, despite the moral cost of killing them. Llengrath says that killing these people would be merciful. I don't know that that make it any less murder, but maybe it really is still kinder even if it is.

It would easily be possible to take a hard line either way, but I do think it's more complicated than just "mass murderer" versus "lifesaving hero." I could play a character who helped Llengrath and didn't feel like a complete monster after the fact.

And yeah, it's implied that the legacy of greater Llengrath has been around for quite some time. I'd say at least one spell per Llengrath wouldn't be out of the question, but characters like Concelhaut and Arkemyr have more than one spell to their names, so I don't think it's quite one to one.

Tayn seems like he deliberately cultivates the idea that he's a spoiled idiot — that is, he is a spoiled brat who's putting Eora at risk for his own pet projects, but no more so than Concelhaut or Kalakoth, and he might not be quite as foolish as he pretends. He only has one spell to his name, but it's a seventh-level spell and I think it's implied that Tayn hasn't actually been an archmage for anywhere near as long as some of the others.

Kinda wonder if things could have been different with Concelhaut, if Llengrath hadn't manipulated the Watcher into attacking Cragholdt.

Edited by Unsung on Dec 20th 2018 at 7:05:22 AM

x7 You're not necessarily abandoning them to continued experimentation - that all depends on how you handle everything else that's going on. With the vithrak gone, Wael's body dead and the Circle more or less in charge, there's an opportunity to look for solutions between the two extremes presented.

Plus, just because Llengrath and Tayn try to shrug off responsibility for those folks to the Watcher doesn't mean the Watcher has to take it.

Edited by Tarlonniel on Dec 20th 2018 at 5:10:36 AM

Well, no, you never have to take responsibility, but you still bear some responsibility for what happens if you don't. I mean, that's kind of the main theme of the game. There probably is a better solution than either of the ones Llengrath or Tayn are offering, but unless you kill them (...have to try that at some point), I imagine if you don't pick between the most likely outcome is they try and put their own plans into action anyway. And maybe they fight about it or maybe Tayn's desire to make friends wins out and he lets Llengrath have her way, but I don't think abstaining is really a third option as such.

For that matter, Tayn and Llengrath strike me as probably being the most benevolent, impartial Circle members we could have had in this particular scenario (stew on that for a second) — I could see the others we've met either trying to use the prisoners as free test subjects (Concelhaut or Arkemyr), or perhaps being indifferent altogether.

Edited by Unsung on Dec 20th 2018 at 7:02:47 AM

If I were able to write my own quest resolution, I'd have the Watcher send those poor souls off to be studied and treated by the local animancy community. But, of course, a game can only offer so many ways to deal with a problem, and when - as so often happens in Deadfire - all those ways are highly objectionable, I have no problem shrugging and walking my character away. My Darkness-Induced Audience Apathy threshold is pretty low.