Fate/Grand Order

I keep dying in the solo battles, to the point my goal changed from beating them to just surviving.

Caenis is particularly tough for me.

Edited by Zabilac on Apr 12th 2024 at 9:58:53 AM

Lady Avalon and Faker rateup since Pretender Class Score is out, lasts until next Saturday

Edited by Nouct on Apr 13th 2024 at 2:05:55 AM

Tangeant, but I'm not happy with the conclusion of Ordeal Call: Id.

It's the quintessential example of how the player character fails as their own character or a Self-Insert. As their own character, they're not developed enough or have strong enough characterization to care about their severing their connection to the Avengers, and as a Self-Insert, the story essentially railroads you into being incompatible with the Avenger mindset, forcing the contracts to be paused. Being honest, my own sense of morals is compatible with an Avenger, yet the game doesn't let you pick that as an option since the story requires the Avengers be Put on a Bus, which removes one of the ideas behind a player character being a Self-Insert: that it feels like you are the character and the one making decisions. It's basically a case of But Thou Must! at that point.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Apr 13th 2024 at 3:44:43 PM

OC 2 is just an example of how Guda is supposed to have character traits even if they are simple and are being brought into the forefront with this story which is gonna clash in how other story chapters past and future handles such a thing because there's never been a consistency with how they are written as characters.

That's why it's such a surprise when they are written witch actual agency and personality that's not just sarcasm or bravery.

Edited by ThaOne on Apr 15th 2024 at 8:08:05 AM

Man I hate LB2, though I guess it's not entirely the game's fault that I don't really have any Archers. But being forced to field crappy story supports and garbage Ortenaus definitely is.

On to the event then.

The problem with that, and I agree with Falcon on this, is that Fujimaru does not have enough character depth to make the ending make sense from a player's perspective.

Given how much we have interacted with Avengers prior to this story, most notably Jalter and Dantes, the plotpoint of Fujimaru being incompatible with their mindset should have been hinted a long time ago for it to make sense now because Fujimaru, out of all canon masters, should have been able to pick up on this at one point.

To be fair though, this not so much Fujimaru's fault, because there are bits of characterisation that could have been expanded previously to make their character more solid, but rather the writers for wanting to keep them as a Self-Insert when they should have dropped that pretense around the time Epic of Remnant began.

Edited by raziel365 on Apr 13th 2024 at 11:20:29 AM

Edited by Zabilac on Apr 13th 2024 at 1:35:16 AM

I'll save any deeper thoughts on OC 2 for when I read the whole chapter, and the overall point of Guda juggling as both a self insert and as a character that each writer wants to actually "say" something resulting in neither side truly succeeding isn't one I actually disagree with but also I'm a bit confused about there needing to be foreshadowing for this when in the first place Guda would not need to deeply understand avenger's mindset without the context of OC. As for caring about Guda severing their connection with the avengers, the two emotional representatives for that are Dantes and Jalter. You only need to have a degree of attachment to one or both and regardless of whether it works for you one cannot say the story hasn't gone to lengths to establish said attachments

To be fair if a Protagonist actually had a mindset compatible with the Avengers over the other classes they wouldn't have made it this far, because that person couldn't win absolutely everyone over to their cause the way Guda does.

Then again that is its own problem, because by now there are so many Servants and they are so different from each other that 'person who can get along with absolutely all of them and inspire undying loyalty from all of them' is a personality type that is pretty much impossible to portray properly while also giving them depth. So it ends up being 'everyone loves us because we are nice and courageous and the script says so. Oh, and we also remind several of them of someone'.

Edited by TomWithoutJerry on Apr 13th 2024 at 4:35:05 AM

They don't need to be mutually exclusive, just flexible, willing to entertain multiple different perspectives and mindsets.

Yeah, but past a point and with so many Servants at some point the flexibility starts breaking Willing Suspension of Disbelief. Especially when the stress is supposed to be taking its toll on the protagonist. At some point a person has to start actually breaking down and having serious differences with someone else or another, if not outright resent at least some of them and viceversa, because that's the way human relationships work. You can't be Mr. or Ms. Nice Guy 24/7 to absolutely everyone in a huge bunch of weirdos including some downright despicable people while also cracking under the pressure of having the world on your shoulders.

Most Master and Servant relationships in Fate get that, and there are frictions, which are an important part of portraying relationships. Then again by this point Guda has so many Servants that there is no believable way to accept they even has the time to meaningfully interact with all of them to the level needed to rally them like this. There is a lot of 'don't think too much about this' one has to swallow.

Edited by TomWithoutJerry on Apr 13th 2024 at 4:44:31 AM

That's part of the issue with the whole "Actual Character" vs. "Self Insert" debacle. If you want Guda to be an actual character, they need to have a defined personality, defined relationships, etc. If you want Guda to be a Self Insert, they have to be tabula rasa, no defined personality or specific relationships. And yet the game tries to have it both ways, resulting in an ill-defined characterization and multiple relationships that are basically subjected to Schrödinger's Canon regarding the main story and their own individual materials.

Let's of course use the Interlude I have now become infamously related to, Atalante Alter's. As Atalante Alter's issues stem from her being incompatible with certain aspects of Guda and hating herself for it since she does consider us someone immensely important to herself, and being reassured it's fine to have some differences with the people you care about, leading to a scene of her getting those issues off her chest... and the ensuing moment is left dialogueless since Guda is still treated like a self insert and they can't have the player be given any specific traits.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Apr 13th 2024 at 7:56:22 AM

FWIW I think part of the reason why Ritsuka is a Silent Protagonsit here is pragmatic.

Like this is not only an anime waifu collecting gacha game, its likely popularized the trend. A key facet is the parasocial connection with these charatcers. Them having a personality would mean they would have preferences that would not mesh with at least some of the roster.

Furthermore, there is the other wrinkle that is Mash. IMO were Ritsuka had a personality beyond a blank slate, it would likely articulate their bond and attraction to Mash, while it would not preclude everyone (this is a spinoff a dating sim to remind) it would make shipping with most other servants more difficult somehow for clashing with their character. She is also currently the only one whose continued existence does not rely upon humanity being threatened or the grail war system(s) at least to my understanding. The first part of the lostbelts even confirmed as much with it being clear the Servants were desummoned once Chaldea's missions were done (Da Vinci hid the spirit origins so they could be resummoned just in case, but the point still stands that they are likely to not stick around once the texture is restored)

That said. I think the preference for Mash would still shine through in other ways. The story for example has the option for removing potential rivals and I think it did that with Id (not really a coincidence that Jalter got more ship tease in the story that ending with her being forced to leave Rituska, whether it be for the Throne or for Antarctica).

These are the somewhat muddied thoughts of someone who is clearly not the writers, just a speculator and spectator.

On a related note the other romantic rivals I know of so far are

• Meltrylys (though that version of her died in SERPAH and the playable one is slightly different)
• Castria (technically the living dream of the actual one still sleeping in the reverse side of the world. YMMV if her case is similar to Melt's or not)
• Ereshkigal (no asterisk beyond her nature as a servant)

Those are the "serious" ones I can think of at least.

Don't forget Corday, Morgan, Barghest, and Melusine.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Apr 13th 2024 at 9:21:23 AM

1. Wow why did this conversation pivot to shipping?

2.

I think you're just overthinking this. Jalter's crush on Guda has been long since established and crops up in varying manners in all her appearances it's just common sense to highlight it on what will be her last focus chapter. The same way the chapter highlights Dantes and Guda's own affection more so than in the past.

3. Characters whose romantic flavoured affections are acknowledged and important to the main story should not be regarded on the same level as characters who only got bait after being playable.

Okay, that strikes the last three then, but I think that would still make Corday a similar case to Jalter, Eresh, and Castoria.

Yes that bit is pretty much a good chunk of Corday's characterisation in Atlantis. Kama would also fall under that umbrella as OC 1.

Personally speaking I don't really like regarding those kind of things as rivalries because it pretends as if anyone Mash included has the potential to actually "get" with Guda by the end as well as ignores the fact that while that some of the traits these girls have that highlight them as heroine types also applies to some guys but they don't write it as explicitly romantic.

Edited by Mami on Apr 14th 2024 at 10:02:30 AM

If anyone of the Servants have any shot at the Fujimarus besides Mash after all of this is over, then it will be one that comes from the Servantverse. The ones who doesn't need the Throne to exist to begin with.

But I hope all of them just go back home peacefully after everything is said and do-...(Remembers that Ranmaru exists alongside Spishtar)... Yeah, let's hope that the Fujimarus can settle the matters with that can of Altrium peacefully.

Edited by Trainbarrel on Apr 14th 2024 at 12:24:18 PM

I....don't really understand how you came to that conclusion I'm ngl

x2 inb4 the story ends with both Guda and Mash joining the Throne and being able to remain with the others forever. The Throne after all has a dang cooking class under Beni, so I can only picture it as a massive apartment complex at this point.

Edited by RebelFalcon on Apr 14th 2024 at 6:42:22 AM

Wasn't one of the topics in this conversation "Servants bonding with Fujimaru is pointless since they will head off to the Throne anyway in the end"?

From there, I just reasoned "Okay, so which Servants who have shown interest in Fujimaru aren't going back to the Throne in the end then"?

And from there, the answer became "Servantverse" as that operates on different rules all together. And Ranmaru made it crystal clear that she will abduct the Fujimarus to their planet eventually, making her one of the people who can still go after Fujimaru once everything is said and done, assuming the rest of the Servantverse-cast can't stop her first.

...

But I know that was an optional topic away from the main one, which is "Are the Fujimarus a Self-Insert or not?"

Personally, I've never seen them as an Self-Insert to begin with.

Whenever I read the story, I just connect it as "I'm reading the F/SN again", following the two as their own characters and get to decide their answers rather than their actions whenever they get the option to do so. It's just that the Fujimarus are the average people compared to all the other special cases in terms of protagonists in this franchise, making them come off as Self-Insert when that might not be the case to begin with.

We don't decide their interests. We don't decide their relationships with anyone. We just decide whatever they want to open their mouths and let out in a conversation, that's all.

And then there is the battle-system, which is clearly up to us to do but that is another matter entirely.

So in the regards to the main topic, then it is just a matter of the Fujimarus "being themselves" and us following their story through the Grand Order Epos.

At least that is my interpretation in this matter, just saying.

That is indeed true.

Edited by Trainbarrel on Apr 14th 2024 at 2:46:17 PM

Unless it's different, past Fate titles had Servants staying with their Master after the fact.

I dunno I can't think of Guda as a self insert since he seems to like Mash quite a bit and I can't really relate to that at all.

A master who can't relate to Guda because they love Elizabeth singing.

her image song was fine, I guess this means the stories are apparently so fundamentally and violently against my principles that I have to reject the story and character logic as a whole?

Edited by Nouct on Apr 14th 2024 at 6:58:58 AM