Mobile Suit Gundam: Iron-Blooded Orphans

I do believe McGillis is better piliot then Gaelio, but it wasn't skill that made difference in Edmonton. Chocolate man stomped because he got into Gaelio had and made him loose control.

Their rematch Gaelio had better MS, improved Alaya-Vijnana System and was calm.

Edited by Tenzen12 on Sep 26th 2019 at 3:14:16 PM

That's the final battle on Mars. I'm talking about the one before that, in Earth orbit.

Eh, that's a valid take, but it's definitely not the impression I got from the show. It's not like Gaelio was exactly a bastion of calm during either of their rematches. Honestly, the biggest problem is that during the second season in general we don't get to see Gaelio really strut his stuff at all until the finale, so his improvement in comparison to McGillis comes out of the blue instead of being properly built up toward the inevitable rematch.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

He was more rational than Mcgillis, and it was enough to give him an edge. Mostly in that final battle where Mcgillis isn't helping his case with the perspective he imagines going on as they clash, perceiving everyone in awe of their power.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 26th 2019 at 7:46:13 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

@Native Jovian, thank you for voicing the stupidity of the finale far better than I ever could.

It definitely seemed like the writers wanted the bad guys to win just for shock value, and the whole Gray-and-Grey Morality thing was an attempt to justify that. Unfortunately, when you subvert a narrative convention in such a contrived manner just to shock, it always falls apart. Especially when the subversion is done in such a way as to rob the story of any real meaning.

One of these days, all of you will accept me as your supreme overlord.

No actually the Director had a very strong intent of having the villain win and no heroes survive from the beginning because the final conflict wasn't good or evil, it was them taking part in a poorly plotted coup and finally having their luck run out.

The staff disagreed on that, since even with the undertones of Tekkadan representing Imperial Japan, Mcgillis Germany, and Gjallahorn the allies(Not a joke, that was the intent), they felt that wasn't right to do to all the characters. So we got the ending we did.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Man no matter how many times I hear it, that is the most bizarre-ass allegory I have heard.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 29th 2019 at 12:22:30 PM

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

Yeah even the name Tekkadan and in Japanese, the title, Tekketsu is derived from Tekketsu Kinnotai (Imperial Blood Corp) an organization durng Imperial Japan.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

IBO is narratively classic tragedy with Tekkadan obsession to charge forward as their Fatal Flaw.

It wasn't really Rustal who killed them it was their ambitions (well I know Rustal '' actually did kill everyone, but that isn't point). Their greatest enemy was themselves and they lost to it.

Honestly, this really only tracks if you're a right-wing Japanese nationalist nutjob who thinks that Imperial Japan was a bastion of freedom trying to protect the rest of east Asia from the Western colonialist oppressors. Which is, uh, not the case. And even then it's not a great match.

I see this take a lot, but I can't really agree. The problem is that Tekkadan had no choice but to charge forward. From the moment that the CGS base came under attack and the local Gjallarhorn branch decided to kill them all because their existence was inconvenient, it was always going to come down to either Tekkadan destroying Gjallarhorn or Gjallarhorn destroying Tekkadan. Rustal spells this out explicitly in season two — Gjallarhorn's absolute rule requires that any opposition to them be completely and utterly crushed. They only maintain control with iron-fisted military force, and any successful defiance shows that they're not actually invincible, which inspires more defiance, and that can quickly lead to a downward spiral where Gjallarhorn loses control of the solar system.

There was no scenario where Gjallarhorn backs off and allows Tekkadan to live peacefully. The only reason they got the reprieve they did during the post-Edmonton timeskip was because Gjallarhorn's own-goal with Ein and their interference in local politics (both of which were supposedly against Gjallarhorn's own rules) forced them to pull back and hold off on their pursuit of Tekkadan for a while. But as soon as the hubbub of that died down, Gjallarhorn begins working to destroy Tekkadan again.

It wasn't a case of Tekkadan being "too ambitious". It was a case of Tekkadan correctly identifying that the situation was "us or them, no middle ground" and doing everything they could to ensure that it was "us" instead of "them", but coming up just a hair short because the director was an asshole and thought they deserved to be punished for... some reason, I'm honestly not even sure what their supposed transgression was.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

They had multiple opportunities to back off and that even in first season. And certainly noone forced them help with Choco man Coup. By that point they were fully legitimate company.

The only time they could have backed off in the first season would have been by disbanding Tekkadan and allowing themselves to be split up and placed in various Teiwaz organizations. They decided against that because they didn't want to be split up — maybe not the wisest decision, but certainly an understandable one. Beyond that, season one was a straight line from "Gjallarhorn is trying to kill us" to "let's do the thing that gives us the best chance of not getting killed by Gjallarhorn". There's even the scene at the end of season one where they talk about it — the mechanic explains to the Teiwaz observer that what they'd been mistaking as bloodlust or a drive for revenge was actually just Orga driving toward the shortest route to victory because it was the best way to keep the most people in Tekkadan safe, even if it means that some individual members were going to die in the process. He's willing to put individual lives at risk to protect the entire organization and everyone in it — but the instant they win at Edmonton and Kudelia makes it safely to the parliament building, he immediately orders everyone to pull back, regroup, and do whatever it takes to just stay alive. So it's not about power or revenge or any of that, he's just doing what he legitimately thinks will be best for Tekkadan.

And in the second season, they're clearly willing to let things lie if Gjallarhorn is. But Gjallarhorn isn't and keeps going after them and their allies, forcing Tekkadan to respond. It's not until Iok uses dainsleif on the Turbines that Tekkadan goes full-throttle "alright, fuck it, we're taking Gjallarhorn down completely" because that's when it became clear that Gjallarhorn wouldn't let them do anything else. And again, near the end of the season, Rustal says as much in so many words: he believes that Tekkadan must be wiped out — completely annihilated, to serve as a warning to anyone else who would defy Gjallarhorn — or else Gjallarhorn will be faced with increasing rebellion that will eventually destroy them with a death by a thousand cuts.

Edited by NativeJovian on Sep 29th 2019 at 12:11:19 PM

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

Yes he said that... after Tekkadan took part in Mc Gillis coup, that is. Rustal gave them little trouble here and there because their cooperation with Mackey, but until that coup it wasn't about wiping them out, just about weaken Choko man position. It wasn't about them in first place.

Rustal isn't that petty to hurt them if it would damage Gjalahorn. Tekkadan won first round and making them example of wasn't option, that's why they had couple of prosperous years of growth without anything serious hindering them.

Edited by Tenzen12 on Sep 29th 2019 at 6:48:37 PM

The Director wanted them destroyed because he found their pursuit of moving up in the world, to the point they were going to conquer Gjallahorn to gain power with a literal blue eyed blonde haired Social Darwinist who is emotionally stunted as a child, to pretty clear be a line they shouldn't have crossed.

Notably unlike their self-sacrificing moments like Norba's death and the like after it, their attempted coup isn't treated as them being on the right side. And in the end has the allegory for the Allies(Gjallahorn) reform the very foundations of its system to be more democratic, with an orphan who has healthier viewpoints than Rustal on the cast caught up in the pursuit of being at the top.

It wasn't the best thought out allegory I can say, but much like how many soldiers were victimized by the brutal treatment of Imperial Japan itself as they were "trained" to be elite warriors, the cast themselves are still treated sympathetically even when they went down a path they shouldn't. Even if the actions themselves are not whitewashed.

That they didn't all die for making a terrible mistake is a much better outcome though, so the Director should be thankful for the rebellion of the staff on that part.

Edited by OmegaRadiance on Sep 29th 2019 at 11:14:56 AM

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Rustal was attacking Tekkadan well before they signed up for the all-out coup. He makes it pretty clear that he considers Tekkadan a threat to Gjallarhorn's security in and of themselves, not just because they were allied with McGillis. His speech wasn't "McGillis and all his allies must be eradicated", it was "no one opposing Gjallarhorn can be allowed to exist".

Even if Tekkadan was in Rustal's crosshairs only because of their connection with McGillis, that doesn't really change things. It just means that Tekkadan is a target for being McGillis' allies instead of for defying Gjallarhorn in general. They still needed McGillis' support (he was both the only reason they made it to Edmonton to begin with and the only thing keeping Gjallarhorn from just wiping them out after Edmonton), so it's not like declaring neutrality and getting out from in between McGillis and Rustal was an option.

Hell, there's a solid argument to be made that abandoning McGillis at the 11th hour was the wrong call. If they'd sent Mika into space with McGillis they could have either double-teamed Gaelio or had one fight Gaelio while the other took out the dainsleif team, and without orbital support the Gjallarhorn forces on the ground would have had to move in and take them out the hard way. Not a guaranteed win for Tekkadan, to be sure, but definitely a better chance than being dainsleif'd from orbit was.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

You are missing point completely. Only reason why they had to die is because they opposed Gjallahorn openly. Before that Rustal wasn't after blood and as long as Mackey doesn't cross line Rustal wouldn't go big on them either. If they decided disociated from him, they would be safe entirely. If they refused go with Choco man, he would be defeated and they would just continue their bussiness, With Elion not giving crap about them. If they punched residend Char, tied him and sent him in box to Rustal, they would rewarded, they would be allowed keep whatever contract they had with Gjalahorn (because yes, they actually worked for it) and might even get some further jobs from him, just because they are pretty useful group.

Edited by Tenzen12 on Sep 29th 2019 at 8:59:06 PM

Yeah like selling out Mcgillis before the coup would be have worked. But at that point they have openly aided a usurper into kickstarter a civil war, all to benefit from Mcgillis winning, and Orga only realizes he fucked up after it was too late and had openly waged war.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Which they were forced into because Gjallarhorn showed up on their doorstep and tried to kill them all. There is no scenario where Tekkadan gets to choose "do not antagonize Gjallarhorn" as their course of action.

Rustal got nearly their entire Earth branch wiped out well before McGillis was doing anything other than the normal Seven Stars political maneuvering (as far as anyone knew). And again, when he's telling Orga "sorry, I can't accept a surrender, I've got to kill you all" he doesn't say "anyone who supported McGillis' bid for power must die", he says "anyone who defies Gjallarhorn must die". That's true of Tekkadan right back to when they were still CGS and hadn't broken out on their own yet.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

First season issue was solved and Tekkadan started second one with clean slant.

You also blatantly exaggerate how serious Rustal was about Earth Branch. All he wanted was for them failing in their job (which yes would come with lot of deaths and Tekkadan might be forced give up on Earth Branch, but that's not same as being wiped out) so they loose some influence and he literally sent single man who officially didn't even work for Gjallahorn. As for Mackey he did more then enough up to that point, ask Gaelio.

Edited by Tenzen12 on Sep 29th 2019 at 11:07:19 AM

Rustal just saw them as convenient pawns to undermine Mcgillis with. A dick move expected of Rustal, but something he didn't make personal. He was more focused on Mcgillis and using Tekkadan to do so. Basically him being his usual hypocrite because he intentionally dragged them into Gjallahorn politics.

Every accusation by the GOP is ALWAYS a confession.

Yeah, Rustal being huge assholle is one of truth of universe... but it's never personal.

Edited by Tenzen12 on Sep 29th 2019 at 11:40:21 AM

And still, "Anyone who opposes Gjallerhorn must die," is a foolish move. Rustal got lucky that Tekkaden attempted to evacuate, rather than fighting to the last man, after basically telling them that he'll hunt them down wherever they go. How many of his own men was he willing to sacrifice for the sake of Gjallerhorn's status?

Edited by mythbuster on Sep 29th 2019 at 5:47:25 AM

Rustal's taking the long view on that one — he thinks that by sacrificing a few men to wipe Tekkadan out completely now, he'll be preventing a rash of rebellions in the future, and saving the lives of all the men that would have died in those fights.

Really from Jupiter, but not an alien.

He could have just bombarded them again.

Also @Native Jovian The Type E is way way better than the standard system. The Advantage it gives alongside a souped up Mobile Suit is what put him above Mc Gillis.

Edited by Envyus on Sep 29th 2019 at 10:40:56 AM

Also, while I agree that Show, Don't Tell would've been better, it would've made no sense if Vidar wasn't a better pilot than Gaelio.

Gaelio was Armchair Military resting in his laurels and nobility. Vidar was Char, obsessed with revenge and devoted to taking someone down. It would be narratively nonsensical for him not to have improved between the years.

Found a Youtube Channel with political stances you want to share? Hop on over to this page and add them.

Gaelio might not get much of real action before events of first season, but he is elite nonetheless, most likely trained from young age. He should be plenty skilled.

Edited by Tenzen12 on Sep 30th 2019 at 5:10:29 PM