Director Osborn or President Luthor

I dunno about that. Hitler is generally regarded as having had mental problems; at the very least, he spent much of World War II under the influence of powerful narcotics. And that did hurt his dictatorial efforts; he made numerous economic and military blunders that ensured his Reich would collapse well before a thousand years went by. A mentally stable Hitler wouldn't have made those mistakes, but a mentally stable Hitler also woudn't have declared war on most of Europe or constructed such elaborate death camps.

The same principle applies to Luthor. Once Superman arrived on the scene, the sensible course of action would have been to just stop committing crimes (or at least stop instigating violent crimes inside Metropolis). He was already a billionaire with plenty of legitimate business interests; he didn't need to keep being a criminal. If he didn't have this obsessive urge to prove himself top dog and triumph over Superman, there'd be no story; Lex would just be a businessman who might be up to some shady dealings, but nothing you need a superhero to deal with.

Basically, being evil is often not the sane course of action to take. Oh, some evil acts here and there might be in your best interest, but when society is geared towards stopping and punishing evildoers, it's best not to go too far with it. This especially holds true for supervillains, who (by definition) must possess extraordinary abilities, whether through superhuman powers, great talent or intellect, or simply access to vast resources. With those abilities, most of them should be able to live happy, successful lives without needing to break the law. That they engage in violent crime anyway, putting their lives and their freedom at risk, is usually a sign of irrational behavior on their part.

edited 22nd Jul '15 9:03:52 PM by RavenWilder

The problem with the Hitler comparison is precisely that his irrationality made him less dangerous in the long run; and insanity is certainly not a prerequisite for waging wars of conquest in Europe... unlike trying to do the same in Asia.

I'd say mogul!Luthor suffers from his eponymous plot problem even more so than his mad scientist iteration. He simply doesn't need to use all those elaborate schemes to gain power and prestige, never mind how he could give himself all sorts of superpowers through technology if he wanted to challenge Superman one-on-one. While corrupt executives with good publicity were a staple of the 80's, I feel his stint as one has been overdone, never mind creating a very asymmetrical conflict with Superman to begin with. The only saving grace I can think of is for him seeing Superman as a threat and himself as humanity's protector to not be constantly deconstructed as mere petty jealousy. That's the one thing he has over Osborn - he truly can be played as well-intentioned.

In general, it takes a lot more work to present irrationality as a flaw of the character, rather than the writing; particularly regarding veterans from the Silver Age and beyond.

Luthor having a point about Superman (which even Superman acknowledges from time to time) and him being irrationally resentful and jealous of him aren't mutually exclusive.

Like I said, jealousy as a motivation simply doesn't work when the points of contention - namely physical power and popularity - can be easily compensated for by use of technology and some creative PR-stunts. And the latter can even be genuine on occasion - you can't say Luthor shies away from dealing with other supervillains when the situation calls for it. If he really needs a psychological theme to revolve around, I'd rather put him down for general xenophobia and distrust of unmotivated altruism coming from an alien force. Still not particularly original, but at least it can be kept more consistent in continuities where there are far more powerful aliens frequently coming to visit, while Superman's own reputation has become divisive and controversial.

Jealousy and resentment aren't synonyms.

Resent in of itself would be Luthor not liking Superman and liking him even less because people love him or something.

Jealousy would be Luthor having something he thinks Superman is going to take away. Recognition, spotlight, California perhaps?

Building stuff to give himself super powers like Superman doesn't inherently solve either of those issues. The aim has to be using them to make people like Superman less or attack Superman preemptively before he takes whatever it is Luthor cares about. If it solves the problem, the issue was envy, which wouldn't necessarily require Superman to be directly involved.

edit:So really, before we go any further on that topic we need to decide on exactly what Luthor's issue is. Because in these posts I don't see it.

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As for which was better? Um, I'm not a particular fan of all powerful Osborn when his nemesis is perpetually broke and has a maximum travel speed of 100 mph at most. Isn't being a successful business man with a crazy hobby enough? It contrasts the broke man anonymously helping people who hate him instead of using his talents to make more money and if you get bored of that, use another villain, have Spider-man put out a fire, give him literally any other problem for an issue or six. Why take Norman out of the grave in the first place? That fashion designer Kingsley was doing a fine job as Hobgoblin.

Superman appeals to me less than Spider-man partly because he and Luthor don't have that kind of dynamic. It's degenerated into abstracts like "Superman represents the American government's inability to reign in corporate corruption" and what not, which also makes me care less about how Luthor is used. Norman's already mentally comparable to Peter, he's already Spider-man's equal in combat, he's superior in finance. Just sticking to the basics is dramatic enough, giving him Ironman type armor on top of it is overkill. Giving him Iroman type armor, an army of super villains and government authority and all the sudden this doesn't even look like a Spider-man story anymore. Luthor always needs some ridiculous lead time or green rocks to really matter. President Luthor is just that, another Luthor story. Director Osborn is a major departure.

edited 1st Aug '15 3:23:45 PM by IndirectActiveTransport

This article on the President Lex stories was published yesterday.

I'm a Lex Luthor fanatic and kinda dislike Norman Osborn, so I have a very clear preference for the President Lex concept. It's just a shame they weren't able to do much with it.

edited 1st Aug '15 4:17:13 PM by StateOfBedlam

Formerly KarmaMeter.

Word of God is that the idea behind President Luthor was to have him actually be a good president, except for his personal grudge against Superman. They were going to have him lead wisely and responsibly for a while, to the point where it looks like a Heel–Face Turn . . . until he finds out Superman's secret identity, at which point re-starting his anti-Superman crusade becomes just too tempting.

But then 9/11 happened, and anything portraying the U.S. government as evil had to be cancelled or delayed.

Dark Reign was a wonderful storyline (one of my all time faves) but yeah the way Osborn got into power so easily always struck me as odd. Even if he was a national hero after killing the Skrull Queen that still ignores that it's public knowledge that he has a severe history of mental illness and murdered some innocent girl a few years ago.

Again, one of the points was that it wasn't public knowledge anymore.

Admittedly it's been some time, so I can't remember the details fully, but I distinctly remember Ben Urich doing one of his internal monologues about how shitty it was that Osborn rose to political power, and part of it was how baffled he was that the public was giving their support.

Actually, it was. In The Pulse (which came before "Civil War"), a writer at the Bugle starts investigating Osborn and he kills her and this sets off an investigation that eventually reveals that he's the Green Goblin (he throws a pumpkin bomb out his limousine). Ben Urich writes the story and I believe wins a Pulitzer.

Then, after he goes to jail and then "Civil War" happens, he's released to become the new head of the Thunderbolts for some reason. And it's in that position where he kills the Skrull Queen, becomes a hero to the people, and gets a new position as head of HAMMER.

edited 8th Aug '15 10:43:07 AM by alliterator