My perspective on English dubs

I do. Because I share the sentiment that it is.

Not on a finished product. Sure you can conceptualize it for an existing product _for your own show,_ but not on something already out. That's called "Abridged Series" or Gag Dub. It's decent for comedy purposes, but no one on their right mind does it as a serious product.

I agree and do understand that. Which is why it's entirely understandable for alteration in such circumstances. But I'm not talking about that here. I'm talking about a mismatched voice. That's entirely the same as a mismatched actor. Like having Jackie Chan play Aang in a future live action Avatar: The Last Airbender movie. It does not fit regardless of the two mediums between animation and live action because that's not the point.

Dragon Ball is a rare example in this case, though. Where the spin was actually for the better. But Dragon Ball is one in a million in this instance.

Which is why I think English voice dubbers fail in comparison to most other dubbers of different countries. Notably, my own country where the dubbers **are** imitators and not their own artistic self. And it works.

It might work.

I was just talking about expertise in being able to distinguish voices when necessary. That's all. You read too much into that point.

I wouldn't say always. Most likely, if you're presenting it as a different and separate work. But when you're presenting it as the same work, you want it to be authentic.

It depends on what the intent is. If you're doing an inspired derivative/homage/adaptation, or a remake, then it might be about how well you can be innovative while also perhaps capturing the essence of the original work (or the good parts of it). But when I watch an anime, typically I just want to watch that very anime, not your own version of it.

This is why I normally prefer the original in subs. There are exceptions, of course; someone showed me the English dub of Black Lagoon and it was pretty enjoyable.

edited 9th Jul '15 2:10:31 PM by Trivialis

I mean.

Some voices sound differently to different audiences.

What might be considered a very serious, dramatic voice in Japanese might sound a little silly to a Western audience. And vice-versa even.

There are so many instances where I've tried to watch something in Japanese and found the female characters and children annoying to listen to because of the pitch. Women and children don't usually talk that high in the west, or that quickly, or that loudly, or if we do, not all the time.

If the point is to be annoying, then it succeeds. If the point is to be peppy and perky then it goes above and beyond.

It's common enough in Japanese media that I figure it's something they're used to, that maybe some people talk like that naturally, are raised to talk that way, that maybe it's acceptable. I am willing to recognize where a culture is different from my own preferences. I'm sure it works fine for them.

Making an English actor try to imitate that probably wouldn't work so well.

And then there's instances where. Some silly comedy voices don't translate very well because of cultural reasons.

For example, I've noticed a thing where apparently rural accents and styles of speaking in Japan tend to be translated to something like American Southern in dubs. Which works to an extent, but. When you do something like that, you don't have the actors imitate the voice of someone from rural Japan. You have them take a little bit of southern drawl and a little bit of a country twang.

edited 9th Jul '15 2:26:04 PM by unnoun

Well then, I strongly disagree with your point if you seem to be on the affirmative side of that. So you don't mind 4Kids changing rice balls into local American food?

I agree if we are talking about comical works of anime. I've seen too many dubbed anime comedies doing the exact thing I demand and it doesn't work. But it fits when it's serious anime where they don't have to yell in a high-pitched voice all crazy. Take Monster, for example, and its dub was also extremely well-made.

Those are cultural differences which I feel like would be best to alter for a different culture if dubbed. But for more serious anime, this is a different point.

Tone and to some degrees pitch would be best way to describe it. It's impossible to dub an accent unless that language has a similar accent. British English in my language gets dubbed into the archaic version of my language. It doesn't work, but the pitch and tone can still remain even if not the accent.

I didn't intend to be pompous.

Let's backpedal a bit here. Let's assume Robin Williams is not the first voice provided for Spongebob, but a foreigner who voices Tom Kenny's Spongebob with his Genie impression. The analogy is getting convoluted now. It doesn't matter if we just say to forget this part of the argument.

Trivialis: I wouldn't say always. Most likely, if you're presenting it as a different and separate work. But when you're presenting it as the same work, you want it to be authentic.

That's exactly my point. These work for comical purposes such as Gag Dub and Abridged Series, but not as serious forms of art.

I think it's entertaining.

...Though, to me that sounds more like "altered for cultural differences".

Taken too far, if anything.

I mean, it works in most of Yugioh that I've seen, and the first Phoenix Wright game.

If the point is to show things like "normal teenagers" then maybe showing normal teenager pastimes, in a cultural context more familiar to the viewer is a better idea.

...But then the later Phoenix Wright games included more and more explicitly Japanese elements and things got weird.

I'm not entirely sure that was anyone's "fault" per se, but.

edited 9th Jul '15 2:31:11 PM by unnoun

You're right, unnoun. But then again, it comes to my point of alteration in order to contextualize it for the audience of the different background again. Which is fine.

You're talking about the acting part of being a voice actor. We are talking about the voice part here.

The voice can still stay the same, especially if it's an iconic one. If Scooby-Doo spoke in a dub of a different language, you would want something that reminded of the original voice and not something entirely new. The way he expresses his fear can be different in order to fit the culture's way of acting. But the iconic voice should remain the same.

We get that with Luffy. Funimation's version is as close as it can get to be nostalgic of the original one in a different language.

edited 9th Jul '15 2:31:42 PM by One_Island

Honestly I think English dubs would be worse off if they tried to mimic the original voices as much as they could. I just don't think Japanese-style voice acting would carry over well into English.

To pity someone is to tell them "I feel bad about being better than you."

I don't see that as "alteration in order to contextualize it for its audience of a different background." I see that as straight-out "Americanizing" a product, which I dislike.

Scooby Doo is a bad example because all the characters sound extremely different in the Latin American dub and yet their voices are beloved.

Hell, giving any media other than anime is a bad example because the extreme anti-dubbing sentiment is only present in the anime fandom.

edited 9th Jul '15 2:35:53 PM by Logograph

...Wait.

I think you have a point with this.

I guess I don't know what Japanese voices are "iconic" like Donald Duck or Scooby Doo.

...But those are, to an extent, comedic. The only really iconic "dramatic" voice I can think of is Darth Vader.

I can sorta see the argument that, if we're just meant to think of Yugi and his friends as "normal teenagers" then maybe showing them eating hamburgers would be easier for Western child audiences to relate to than rice balls.

And in Yugioh I can't think of any instances of it not working.

...Granted I don't know much about Yugioh, but.

I think "Americanizing" Phoenix Wright worked pretty well for the first one.

edited 9th Jul '15 2:40:27 PM by unnoun

@Physical Stamina

Well, it depends. Are we talking about generic anime characters where the voices are unremarkable and perhaps the actual voice of the voice actor? Yes, I agree.

But if we are talking about iconic voices like that of Luffy from One Piece. It's actually very important to imitate the original voice or at least captive some sort of feel from the original voice. This came down to me talking about if Scooby-Doo spoke in a dub of a different language, one would want something that reminded of the original voice and not something entirely new. It must be nostalgic of the original, just in a different language. Hence it must get as close as it possibly can get. That is, if the voice is remarkable. If not, then my point can be dismissed.

edited 9th Jul '15 2:40:22 PM by One_Island

Except that the changed voice can live a life of its own within its intended audiences. Like Goku's Latin American voice. Or Spanish Batman, whose voice is very much unlike Kevin Conroy's.

edited 9th Jul '15 2:42:53 PM by Logograph

I don't know about the Latin American dub. I used the Scandinavian dub as a basis for this claim, where the Scandinavian voice actually tries to sound close to the English version. Also if the Latin Americans haven't heard the English version, they won't know any better. How about Donald Duck as an example?

This is about dubbing in general, with emphasis on anime. If we limited this to anime, it will be locked quickly for becoming into a complaint thread.

I think we agree here, unnoun. Even if comedic, it still the best examples I could give for something that captivate to certain degrees the original voice even if it has different acting. Which is why I think most people don't prefer English dubs since they would give an entire new spin on an established voice. Think of Mickey Mouse speaking with a Brooklyn accent. It doesn't work.

Darth Vader is a better example for a serious work, yes. I hope you can see the point of my argument, though.

I haven't watched that show. It might work for it. I'm using the 4Kids dub of One Piece as an example of something being "Americanized" used in a negative sense.

If I take your word for the Yugioh series, it might work considering its demographic and such. But not for One Piece.

Some can be done right, others can be done horribly wrong that it makes it look almost entirely xenophobic. That's the key differences, I think.

edited 9th Jul '15 2:54:15 PM by One_Island

I don't know about the Spanish. That might be similar to the English then. However, I won't be surprised amongst "your kind," there will be many disliking those voices because they sound unlike the originals unless they were raised up to prefer the local dub than the English or Japanese versions. But you people also dub live action, so I decide to say that your opinion, as well the Germans' opinions, don't count.

edited 9th Jul '15 2:59:01 PM by One_Island

...I want this to happen now.

In lieu of you bringing up One Piece, I have to wonder if by "generic" you mean "not well-known".

And if anything, Luffy's JP voice is only "iconic" to those who have watched One Piece subbed and enjoyed it.

Anyway, on some occasions, Japanese voices can begin to wear on me. The worst of it was when watching Kiniro Mosaic. The main cast consist of five (?) characters, all with high-pitched, constantly jabbering voices, which eventually just became too much for me to handle. And I think, as unnoun said, the rapid speech is part of it, too.

Another example would be Saturn from the Sega Hard Girls anime. Almost every episode has her whining about something all the time, which would be annoying in and of itself, but that voice... It's just... grating.

I wouldn't want a western VA to try to mimic that; instead, I'd prefer if they sounded like actual teenagers and not my little cousin. Maybe it's "cute" to Japanese watchers, but it gets on my nerves. Hell, not even actual Japanese teens have that permanent soprano anime girls seem to have. Think about it, which would you prefer: a poor imitation, or a different take that sounds and feels more natural while still matching the character well?

Besides all this, though, I just like prefer hearing things in my own language when I can; I just feel more at home, I guess. This isn't to say I haven't heard some duds, but I enjoy most of what I see. Besides, I can't really tell Japanese VAs apart from one another, except for maybe Norio Wakamoto.

Also as an aside, English dubs already kinda imitate Japanese VAs. You know that sharp exhale-inhale gasp of shock anime characters do all the time? That wasn't the invention of some dubbing studio. I've also heard quite a few Noblewomans Laughs being done by English VAs.

edited 9th Jul '15 3:02:59 PM by PhysicalStamina

To pity someone is to tell them "I feel bad about being better than you."

I don't personally know a lot of Japanese teens so I'm not sure I know.

...Well, I've known teens that were of Japanese descent, but. Like, they were raised in Western culture mostly, so a lot of the cultural norms of Japan probably wouldn't have carried over.

Either way it doesn't work in English or Western culture.

edited 9th Jul '15 3:06:37 PM by unnoun

Donald Duck's voice in the Latin American dub is like the original except way more high pitched and less comprehensible.

I have decided your opinion doesn't count either, then. Hell, you may as well bring "shit taste" to the table unironically now.

edited 9th Jul '15 3:16:54 PM by Logograph

What.

Making a character's voice more annoying can be an arguably more accurate reflection of the character.

Kamille from Zeta Gundam is a pretty good example. The English version is significantly more annoying to listen to than the Japanese version, but that's because the essential Kamille is a barely-coherent self-absorbed bundle of rage against authority in the shape of a person and the English VA captures that, while the Japanese VA has him spouting the same nonsense but acting like it's normal seinen hero stuff.

The dub team could watch the show, see who Kamille would ultimately be, and cast an appropriate voice for him based on what was produced rather than what was merely proposed. There can be a gap between what a character comes across as and what they were original cast as, and in real sense the second guy to play them has an advantage when that happens.

edited 9th Jul '15 3:19:48 PM by Night

Nous restons ici.

His "quack speak" is much more pronounced in the Latin American dub.

edited 9th Jul '15 3:18:39 PM by Logograph

Well, Luffy's voice is iconic. It's also clear that the English voice actress is mimicking the Japanese version as close as she can get and we actually do hear a similar voice. Luffy has a memorable voice, not something everyone can mimic, but something most would be able to detect. Of course, most would only detect Luffy's Japanese voice if they watched it in Japanese. I also thought Luffy's voice sounded off, but when you get used it it, you can hear the similarities. I also found the English version of Scooby-Doo to be very offbeat when I first heard it, but as I got used to it. I could actually hear the similarities since a voice actor of a different language naturally have a different tone. Even I can hear it when I speak English where my voice gets naturally deeper in comparison to when I speak my mother tongue where it gets naturally high-pitched, but after adjusting to that voice, you would notice it more or less share same source.

As for your first paragraph, I meant both. There are generic voices of anime characters that aren't memorable at all and their popularity also have something to do with how iconic they are.

You're talking about Tsundere characters. I agree, they are annoying and they are the least of all Japanese anime characters I'm referring to. I won't mind them being Americanized, which would be for the better, but not the whole thing should be altered culturally because of one annoying meme known as Tsundere.

Well, as I said, the acting can change (especially for Tsundere characters), but not the voice (except for Tsundere characters), especially if it's iconic.

Not exactly the same.

Well then, that proves my point that the voice actor still tries to captivate the nostalgia of the original voice by mimicking it.

To be honest, your examples weren't good. Batman just need to sound deep and dark to be Batman, he doesn't need to sound like Kevin Conroy's Batman to be Batman. Another example, does Spongebob sound the same as Tom Kenny's? If yes, that's another good example there.

But you people tend to use horrible dubs, all your voices sound so awfully terrible and deep for children in cartoons.

I noticed the Arabic version of Spongebob still sound the same as the English version, which should prove my point that even if different acting, it should more or less have the same voice:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDdQUinJLvs

edited 9th Jul '15 3:40:49 PM by One_Island