Teen Titans (2003)

I didn't really knew that Robin in the original series had a lot of haters. That's news to me.

@Austin: And it's in your right to disagree. But the fact is, there are still fans who remember him fondly, so the fact is he was memorable enough to stick without being developped. Personally I like him as he is, but I agree I would have liked him getting development.

A villain can be memorable without being developed, but when you're supposedly the Big Bad, being underdeveloped doesn't work. It'd be one thing if he was a chaos-for-the-sake-chaos guy, and that either worked well for the story or provided a good contrast to the heroes. But in Slade's case, he's a manipulator and is implied to have some kind of long-term goals in mind, so the fact that we never find out what his deal is just ultimately makes him feel shallow. He's a character who's threatening on the surface, but in the end, lacks substance.

Something worth pointing out for the people who seem confused about why the original Teen Titans Robin has haters is that Robin has made several mistakes over the series due to letting his anger or want of justice cloud his judgement in regards to his teammates. The worst and most obvious example being how he treated Beast Boy in The Beast Within episode. Infact I would just point out his tense interactions with Beast Boy were never really solved unlike Cyborg earlier on.

Robin out of all of the Titans showed the most flaws I think (with Cyborg and Reven following). Starfire and Beast Boy showed the least flaws due to be underdeveloped (the former due to not being developed enough due to time constraints, the latter because he didn't get some serious focus on until much much later on)....

Not really. We do find out he is looking for an apprentice, which I will admit is a bit simple, but it's something. And honestly, I have seen worse (The Light, anyone?). Again, I agree Character Development would have improved the character, but he was solid with what he had.

edited 18th Aug '15 4:27:12 PM by Theokal3

I still find myself asking what he was planning to do after he found an apprentence.

Mold them into Slade 2.0 then retire seems like the best answer.

Slade wanted a legacy to his name pretty much. Considering what happened with his children....

I can't take it on good faith that his backstory is the same as in the comics, given that he's a much different villain in the show that he was originally.

That's not exactly what I meant. Slade wants an apprentice to follow in his footsteps. Jericho is one of his kids and he appears directly in the show as a hero (which he is also in the comics) and the other 2 (trained mercenaries both named Ravager) are not mentioned as far as I know.

Slade wasn't the only one who got changed for the show in the first place so that point isn't really relevant.

edited 18th Aug '15 5:57:07 PM by Bleddyn

Maybe he just wanted to show Batman off. "Hey, your former sidekick? He's my apprentice now, what do you think of that, huh?"

Considering how he had Robin attempt to rob Wayne Enterprises that definitely was part of his motive. This version of Deathstroke would likely be able to draw past connections together to use against his favorite adversary

Bleddyn, you think Robin was at his worst to Beast Boy in Beast Within, how so? What exactly did he do that was out of line?

He incriminated Beast Boy damn near immediately despite that there was a big chunk of obvious evidence that he missed. What was Raven's side of the story? And why was his friend saying that he doesn't remember what happened? Also something to point out....Beast Boy hates being treated like a animal which Robin was doing. The show itself confirms this in that one episode where he got mistaken for a alien's green pet dog. That dislike was directly borrowed from Beast Boy's backstory...where he got treated like an experiment and a criminal at one point.

Basically what I am saying is...Robin jumped the gun on that one. Does he have his reasons? No doubt about it. I am just more surprised that I don't recall Robin ever apologizing very well to him over that.

Now mind you something to make clear I do not dislike Robin at all. I just think the guy like the rest of the Titans has flaws, his were just made more obvious in the show.

I believe Rose Wilson was in the Go! comics(The sorta sequel comics, not the comics of the spinoff) at some point.

Remember what I said previously about applying the comics backstory and mythos ruining the quality of this show's story telling?

No? Well this conversation as to Slade needing an apprentice as part of his reason for not being an underdeveloped villain comes to play in some forms.

For starters, Deathstroke is a badass mercenary who took a drug that basically retards his aging and increase his physical abilities (with some healing factor to it); why would he need to worry about having an apprentice at this point if he is basically Captain America on . . . evil.

Second, Jericho is in the show. And going by the comics, why didn't he use his direct bloodline (who has similar training as his own) as his heir to his legacy. Granted Jericho became a hero, but Robin is an already establish good guy who is a sidekick to the one super hero who fucking hates crime of any kind and yet he went with forcing Robin to be his pupil. He could of did that same blackmailing shit on Jericho by threatening to kill his mother or something (he will go that route, the woman did shoot his eye out).

Third, why did he even bother intentionally fuck with the Titans to draw their attention. At this point, he is a shadowy figure vague in mystery. He could of easily and safely rule the city with his unexplained crime/terrorist organization without the Titans developing an interest in who he is and what he is planning (whatever the fuck his goal is). Kind of make me wish the reason he did all this risky but otherwise dumbass shit is because he is basically Leonard Snart, where he loves being a dick just for evlulz and has a well structure plan to get what he wants in the end. But no, the show didn't bother giving him a valid reason for being evil when he is supposed to be the key arch enemy to the Titans (holy shit, I am starting to sound like a broken record at this point). Even Joker has a reason for being evil, and he was meant to have no development at all (same with his Beware the Batman counterpart, Anarky).

I guess in order for me to enjoy Deathstroke in this show is if I don't reference any other versions of him. Cause after all, Ron Pearlman has the perfect voice the character (which makes me wish they used him in better portrayal of the character in the future).

Speaking of Titan villains who will be ruined when we think about their comic self: Brother Blood. Considering his character being some sort of cult leader with powers, a Cobra style organization and demonic tie ins I am amazed that his Titan obsession is towards Cyborg instead of Raven. They nailed it with him running HIVE Academy (which is weird that the AIM like organization turn into evil X-Men like school) for being both the cult leader and later on James Bond mastermind, but it seems weird that his focus of obsession is towards Cyborg (the advance but not very powerful Titan) instead of Raven (who is literally the anti christ). Especially the way the story arc ends where Cyborg developed some sort of Fairy Tale like last minute magic power up and defeated Blood because he knows that he is human unlike Blood. That's good, but all that seems like something Raven would naturally say and do given her internal struggle in not wanting to become the demon she really is and submitting to Blood's control in wanting the demon.

And let's not mentioned how he would of made a reasonable servant for Trigon . . . by the way, I didn't research this enough, but did the Brother Blood story arc happened before or after the whole Trigon thing. If after then nevermind my point, but if before then they could of brought his ambicious ass from the grave as part of a duo dragon with Slade serving Trigon. Hell, Slade's motives for betraying the human race in exchange for power sounds like something Brother Blood will gleefully do.

Though, I suppose, his portrayal in this show is better in Arrow where he is basically Slade's bitch.

edited 19th Aug '15 6:53:11 AM by BigK1337

It was a bad situation, but I think Robin could've handled it better. Since Raven was healing herself, it seems odd to not wait until she's concious and she can clear up what happened. Plus, Robin broke the law when he posed as Red X, and nobody talked about taking him to jail.

She was, but I've heard there were no allusions to her connection to Slade.

I think a big reason why the Joker works is because of what a great contrast he is to Batman. If he was part of any other rogues gallery, he might come off as more shallow.

Before. Brother Blood was season 3, Trigon was season 4.

Knew he was before Trigon. Seriously, wasted plot and wasted character. The whole concept of Trigon using main villains of Titan's past as minions for his oncoming return is pretty badass once you think about. Hell, I would love to Blood in his comic accurate costume as he serve Trigon.

But alas, that was all wasted.

They had no reason to not assume that Beast Boy was the one who hurt Raven. Like Starfire said she was in his teeth and then he attacked them. Going, "Maybe there was another monster who looked just like him" would have been ridiculous despite that actually turning out to be the case. And the he transformed again and seemingly attacked Raven again. What were any of them supposed to think? Cyborg and Starfire also believed him to be guilty. It's ridiculous to say he went too far or didn't trust him enough there, when he had no reason to think anything else and the others believed the same thing. That was the entire point of the interrogation. That's not jumping the gun, that's being justifiably cautious.

We don't know what they talked about with the whole Red X deal but we do know it hurt everyone's trust in him.

edited 19th Aug '15 12:53:51 PM by LSBK

He could of still waited till Raven woke up. She was healing herself pretty fast. And again if Beast Boy had no clue what the hell was going on then why did Robin see it fit to continue the interrogation? Because he thought he was lying? If I recall correctly Robin was taught to pick up on the subtle stuff, he isn't a lie detector like Raven but he at the very least probably could of picked up that something was really off about the situation. Also something to point out...Beast Boy is a veteran superhero by technicality. He and Robin have been both been in business way longer then the other Titans. Robin should of realized that with Beast Boy's track record that his likelihood of turning into a criminal or a villain in about a day is ridiculously low.

Either which way that's not my point. Robin barely apologized for treating his friend like a criminal and an animal when he didn't have all pieces of the puzzle. Out of all the Titans near the end of the show Robin and Beast Boy had the most tense relationship and it never quite got resolved.

edited 19th Aug '15 3:26:20 PM by Bleddyn

He did no such thing.

What he did was essentially say "as it is, this looks really bad. I want to help you, but you've got to give me something to work with." When he had Beast Boy and Raven was missing, he was trying to make sense of it and needed Beast Boy to help him find a way to stop it from getting worse. He only acted against Beast Boy when it looked like the Beast was had passed the point of no return.

The fact that that often gets misinterpreted that as him saying "I'm gonna throw you in jail unless you give me a reason not to" is really rather annoying, especially since that interpretation would be incredibly out of character even for Titans Robin.

edited 19th Aug '15 3:26:55 PM by KnownUnknown

I must me not remembering how the conversation exactly went then....

The conversation goes:

• "You need to tell me what happened."
• "I told you I don't remember... I was angry and then nothing! Claws, a scream. Nothing."
• "Claws and a scream isn't nothing."
• "Claws and a scream isn't nothing. What else."
• "That's all"
• "No it isn't. You have to focus."
• "I am."
• "You have to remember!"
• "Try harder! If you can't tell me what happened I have to assume the worst. I have to put you in jail. You need to remember!"

Sometimes people focus solely on the part "I have to put you in jail," and not the fact that the whole conversation is him desperately trying to get Beast Boy to remember something, anything, so that he wouldn't have to do that (the voice acting helps too - Robin is clearly getting increasingly anxious, not harsh). If he were treating Beast Boy like a criminal and didn't care whether or not he could end up in jail, the conversation wouldn't have happened at all.

I even forgot the placing of the actual conversation. I thought it was before the first fight with the Beast, but it happened after - Beast Boy isn't someone who's only been accused of something, he was as far as they know caught red handed. The fact that Robin legitimately believes there's more to it and that Beast Boy must remember something that could exonerate him says a lot, even if he knows that if he can't get something he'll have to assume the worst.

He also gets sharp with him when he snaps at Starfire, but that's the only time he really get antagonistic.

edited 19th Aug '15 3:45:59 PM by KnownUnknown

I did forget the earlier parts then. Damn I need to re-watch Teen Titans at this rate.

I feel like Robin could have handled that interrogation more delicately, but people do sometimes blow that moment out of proportion.

Outside of that episode, I'm not sure the two had a relationship at all, tense or otherwise. They're the only two Titans who never got an episode focused on their friendship, and they're listed as an example on The Friends Who Never Hang.