Dead or Alive General

This whole situation honestly seems incredibly stupid for everyone involved.

The Dead or Alive Xtreme franchise has never been a super fantastic seller. The first one did quite well considering the niche it was in, selling 600,000 units (over half of which were in North America), the second did markedly poorer, selling only about 250,000 units (again over half of which were in North America). Those are the stats that VG Charts provides at least, if anyone wants to look: DOAX1 DOAX2.

North America has always, always been their biggest market. To say that they're going to stay out of it because of one vocal minority is an absurdity. It's likely that part of the reason the first game sold decently was in part because of said controversy. There was a lot of hoopla about how risque the game was, partly because sex is always more controversial than violence in the West when it comes to games.

Neither game was mind-blowingly fantastic, the first was reviewed well enough, averaging mid-to-low sevens from most, the second dropped to roughly lower six. Again, if you want a citation the scores are on Wikipedia for both, DOAX1 and DOAX2. So the argument that the games might be critically lambasted doesn't really hold water.

The idea that the game wouldn't be given a fair shake? There's a little more weight to that, but again, I ask, would someone who was buying this game really change their minds based on a review or a low score? Especially one where a bias against the concept might be obviously at play?

I will admit that the one thing I find frustrating about all of this is that Play-Asia took a really crass approach to this, knowing that it would rile both sides up. It was an obvious attempt by them to drum up sales for it, and I'm stunned and a little disheartened that it worked.

The point I'm ultimately trying to make here is why would Tecmo/Koei purposely deny themselves their most lucrative market over controversy? Controversy helps sell games, it doesn't hinder them. Look at the most recent example: Hatred, a game that rode that wave to over 75,000 units sold for what is, at the end of the day, a game that seems mediocre and forgettable when you put aside the concept.

This game releases in the West, at worst what happens? Some people complain about it on the Internet and it gets critically panned. Since when has that stopped anything from being released ever? The only thing that limiting it has done is force people who would have bought it in a store over here to instead import it, which is costing them more money for no discernible benefit.

Truth be told, I just don't get it. Not like that's anything new, but whatever.

Thank you, It's great to see someone agree with me.

Yea, if the packaging cost is too much it could have at least been a digital download. This moves makes no sense ever and play-asia's gonna be to only party that benefits.

Maybe they think the game would have a negative effect on the DOA brand as a whole outside Japan. I remember a long time ago they thought about toning the fanservice so people would take the game more seriously.

I personally don't have enough faith in Koei-Tecmo to actually pull off a reverse marketing ploy, I think that they're just massively incompetent. I can see a game not being released here because of the massive amount of negative publicity it would get, and the fact that many people either celebrated the game not being released here or let themselves get triggered by Play-Asia calling a spade a spade speaks volumes.

I personally think that Play-Asia are a bunch of geniuses and if I ever want to ship an overpriced japanese game here I'll be sure to think of them.

I can't really see them thinking that would be the case. Both the Xtreme and the main series have been sold on sex appeal since the very beginning. The first game was I believe the first 3D fighter to have breast physics (don't quote me on that I might be wrong).

There was talk of dialing back the fan-service, specifically after Itagaki was kicked out of the company. Nothing much ever really came of it though. When people bought DOA 5 they eventually added more costumes and sexy costumes because it's what people wanted. Hence why there's almost $500 (!) dollars of DLC costumes and no lack of fan-service outfits for, well, anyone really.

... The full collection of DLC costumes costs up to around $500? Wow, talk about a lot of dough.

Actually it's probably closer to $600 because right now all the DLC on Steam costs about $460 and some of it is half-price, so once that sale is over it'll be pretty close to $600.

The amounts that the game sold are not appealing numbers for the modern AAA developer/publisher. That's a niche market at best.

Play-Asia is playing the "SJWs are trying to ruin everything" thing to get people to buy import the game through them when they otherwise probably wouldn't have cared. Similar marketing strategy as what Hatred did, but the difference in this case was that, unlike with Hatred, there was nobody talking about how terrible DOAX3 was going to be. Because nobody gave a shit.

But hey, it was marketing shtick that worked for Running With Scissors, the Hatred developers, Breitbart, and various hacks on Youtube, so maybe it'll work here.

edited 27th Nov '15 5:17:02 PM by Pannic

In my opinion, you don't really get to create a whole bunch of articles over the years about how a series is sexist and misogynistic and generally everything bad, and then when a publisher decides not to release a game because of that stand back and go "it wasn't me!" People want problematic games to stay out of the West, and then distance themselves when problematic games are kept out of the West; I don't quite get the logic.

And Play-Asia has received thousands upon thousands of twitter followers and massive amounts of publicity by doing nothing but mentioning SJWs (calling a spade a spade imo) and posting smug anime faces, so I'd say that they're doing a good job and certainly not dooming themselves like lots of butthurt feminists have proclaimed.

Yeah Play Asia does this type for Years. A game dev I follow on Twitter mention they are sell Japanese imports since 2001. They not are pandering. Pandering is being dishonest about what you are sell.

Sorry for the double post, but to change the subject. Who is your main in the main series?

Yes, thank you for seeing reason here.

Todd Ciolek of Anime News Network talks about the Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 controversy among other things.

Anyone deluded enough to use SJW as a pejorative

Told me everything I needed to know. There's a specific image I found that compiles a huge number of articles slamming the series for "sexism", one that even says "Dead or Alive Xtreme 3 is Too Sexist For Europe and US. And people say there isn't a hostile environment!

And I've read Leigh Alexander's tweets about it. I could sum it up as "Ugh this game is awful and I hate but I don't care about it seriously guys ugh" which is pretty hilarious. I'm not actually sure why SJWs are upset about this, when they should be celebrating.

I know what image you're talking about. Again, developers get criticized all the time for the games they release. This isn't any different. I'm half expecting your next argument is going to claim bad reviews are the same as harassment.

Todd Ciolek is correct about all this and the people blaming social justice warriors for anything here.

edited 28th Nov '15 11:19:42 AM by VeryMelon

It goes beyond bad reviews. I remember that one Kotaku article titled "Game Developers Really Need to Stop Letting Teenage Boys Design Their Characters" (an article Schreier was forced to apologize for). One article attacking DoAX3 called defenders of the game "sexist apologists," while another insinuated that fans were also racists (because I dunno).

Then remember that these gaming publications are probably the most visible indicators of public opinion; after all, we sorta expect these writers to actually play videogames (I could barely type that sentence without bursting into laughter). If you publish and endorse articles like this then you shouldn't be shocked when the game developer actually listens to you and pulls the game from the West. And again, the fact that the SJW faction is reacting so strongly against this is a clear case of The Lady Doth Protest Too Much.

I won't say it's harassment because disagreeing =/= harassment, unlike what a lot of popular SJW personalities believe.

Actually you know what? I'm done. We aren't doing anything except wasting each other's time trying to get the other to change their opinion.

edited 28th Nov '15 11:55:27 AM by VeryMelon

Hang on, I want to ask.

Who the heck is Leigh Alexander?

And also, who's Anita Sarkeesian?

edited 28th Nov '15 12:00:16 PM by TargetmasterJoe

A couple of women that a bunch of whiny manchildren can't get over.

That.

edited 28th Nov '15 12:10:29 PM by VeryMelon

I've got to ask though, is it really the case that there's been a repeated, mainstream flogging of the series for the last couple of years? It really hasn't seemed like it. Sure, now there are articles popping up left, right, and center about it, but that's in part due to the reaction from Tecmo deciding not to publish the game.

It's not to say that when I look for articles about it I don't find a few. To say that it's a subject never touched upon would be disingenuous, but it honestly seems that most of the recent games, including the last installment of DOAX, have come and gone without really much fervor or fretting. Generally the largest complaint that seems to be being made about the series is that the PC version of DOA 5 Last Round is a piss-poor port job.

The last real huge sexism debate surround a game, not DOA just in general, was when people were going back and forth over the design of the Sorceress in Dragons Crown. And a large amount of that came from the exchange between George Kitakami and Jason Schreier. The back and forth about the design of the Sorceress (and to a lesser extend the Amazon) was everywhere, you couldn't get away from it.

It also comes down to how you define mainstream. I'm actually legitimately interested to see the photo you mentioned with the articles, to see how many are from before the announcement, as well as to see how many were published on major websites. I have been actively looking for articles like the ones you allude to. I have checked places like 1up, gamesradar, egm, eurogamer, game informer, gamespot, ign, destructoid, and the escapist. While I found some articles citing the game as sexist (mostly found on eurogamer, if that makes a difference), the vast majority are stuff like "new DLC came out", or "here's a review of the game" or, "here was a pre-release trailer showing how character X looks now".

Is it unfair of me to not count any articles made after the announcement? I don't believe so, because it honestly seems like until said announcement was made that barely anyone was talking about it. Most of the recent articles were speculation as to whether the game would see a Western release, and the majority of those were neutral about it.

Certainly, if we expand things to include forum posts, or people's personal blogs, and other such things, then there will of course be more articles. At the same time, though, those articles are generally by their very nature reaching a very limited audience that, in all likelihood, had already made up their own minds about the game.

It all goes back around to what I brought up in my first post. North America has always been the largest audience for these games, and for DOA games in general. It seems that in all of the looking around I did that the overwhelming majority of coverage has been indifferent. Neither good, nor bad, simply there. If Tecmo is going to deny themselves their biggest market because of a vocal minority that wouldn't be buying the game anyways and cannot force anyone to abstain from buying it, then they are idiots.

It doesn't even necessarily have to specifically be about DoA itself. Again, look at Dragon's Crown. Look at Senran Kagura. Here is the image in question. Anything that dares not conform to "feminist" standards is ripped apart in the Western gaming media.

I notice that two of the images in that link are from articles that are directly in response to the announcement of it not being released. Unless the developers have crystal balls that allow them to see into the future, can't see how those articles had an impact.

edited 28th Nov '15 2:32:07 PM by Pannic

Admittedly, the whole narrative of gaming journalism is in flux right now, and I wouldn't have enough time, energy, or willpower to weigh the whole thing against itself.

Still though, to me, neither side really has as much power as the other ascribes to it. I can understand why there's an argument taking place, but even with articles like the ones mentioned, I don't see other games being blocked from US release. Hell, Senran Kagura was a game that probably wouldn't have ever been localized a few years ago, just because it's niche, but when people found out about it they wanted it and they got it.

It just seems to me like it's a weird decision, and again, a stupid one if it is indeed motivated by a fear of controversy. Controversy has, from what I can tell, only ever moved discs and cartridges. From Doom and Mortal Kombat all the way to DOAX 1 and Dragon's Crown, and of course the king of controversy, GTA pisses more and more people off each iteration in terms of sex and violence, and it just keeps making more sales.

I understand where you're coming from, I'd like to think. To me it's a damn shame that the game isn't being released in the West, because people over here that want it shouldn't have to go out of their way to get it. It's cheesecake, but it's harmless cheesecake.

Yep.