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Bocaj Funny, but not helpful from Here Relationship Status: Pining for the fjords
Funny, but not helpful
Feb 16th 2020 at 2:58:38 PM

Having half-baked High Ends doesn't even diminish the completed ones anyway.

If anything, its going to make them look more dangerous when the heroes have trouble with the half-baked ones.

My original fictions and Essential Avengers liveblog
Druplesnubb Editor of Posts
Editor of Posts
Feb 16th 2020 at 3:04:35 PM

That's the thing. The High Ends have been built up as so powerful that five of them at the same time should completely trash all these heroes. They have to give an excuse for why the heroes can beat them without just removing all the hype that the High Ends have gotten. It's basically a setup for "they're this strong when they aren't even finished" moment. This means that when we meet a mature High End again in the future (or several at the same time) the hype surrounding them hasn't diminished and we can expect them to be suitably terrifying.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
Feb 16th 2020 at 3:06:22 PM

[up][up][up] I would prefer the High Ends to be rare, incredibly costly to make, and an "Oh god we need to stop this from happening in the first place" situation. Fighting multiple High Ends shouldn't happen, at least not without it being a massive deal. I'd honestly rather the High Ends be detained or destroyed before being completed, than having the heroes fight them while they're half baked.

The chance for the heroes should be to stop it before it begins.

[up][up][up][up] Where did I say that every Noumu needs to be that strong? Did I type the wrong thing?

Edited by GNinja on Feb 16th 2020 at 11:10:51 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
Feb 16th 2020 at 3:14:09 PM

Most of that reflects the current situation, with the difference being the bad Doctor was forced into a situation where unprepared High Ends were used.

Feb 16th 2020 at 3:23:16 PM

I mean, everything we have seen does suggest that the High End models take at least a vast amount of resources to manufacture, maintain, and activate. The doctor saying how the hood nomu needed time to stabilize once being activated shows how they can't be quickly and easily deployed.

That's just like, your opinion, friend.
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
Feb 16th 2020 at 3:27:02 PM

[up] I know. Which is partly why I'm not a fan of them being nerfed so soon.

Just not a fan of it. I'm not saying it's the worst thing ever or anything.

Kaze ni Nare!
Demongodofchaos2 Best Dad from Eldritch Nightmareland Relationship Status: 700 wives and 300 concubines
Best Dad
Feb 16th 2020 at 3:28:11 PM

But you always make it seem like it is with your posting style.

Watch Symphogear
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
Feb 16th 2020 at 3:34:51 PM

edit: Actually, I don't want to derail the conversation anymore so nevermind. I'll ask in a pm.

Edited by GNinja on Feb 16th 2020 at 11:37:10 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
slimcoder Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Feb 16th 2020 at 3:41:16 PM

Itís not even a nerfing or anything major at all.

A nerf is like crippling them though poison, here they just arenít finalized yet & chances are theyíll get stronger as the fight goes on.

Can you see all of me? Walk into my mystery. Do you remember me? Capture you or set you free I am all. I am all... I am all of me
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
Feb 16th 2020 at 3:47:51 PM

[up] That's my hope.

Giving the heroes a fighting chance is overrated anyway. Isn't it a part of the whole ethos in MHA that the villains have ALL the advantages from the get-go anyway? And one of All Might's speeches was about a true hero being able to get out of any kind of pinch, no matter how dire.

Constantly being unfair to class 1-A has been a staple of their development.

Edited by GNinja on Feb 16th 2020 at 11:49:12 AM

Kaze ni Nare!
Blueace Blue Reflection Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Blue Reflection
Feb 16th 2020 at 3:51:20 PM

Tomura and his crew have pulled more than a couple shonen protagonists' staples, and getting caught with their pants down and holding on until they get their heavy hitters is a familiar scenario. Hell, it's already happened here.

Edited by Blueace on Feb 16th 2020 at 8:59:22 AM

HandsomeRob High Priest of the Holey Brotherhood! from Holey Brotherhood Lair Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
High Priest of the Holey Brotherhood!
Feb 16th 2020 at 4:07:36 PM

You know, one day I do want to see a situation where the heroes need to fight a mass produced version of a Elite Mook Super Prototype, and it doesn't suffer Lowered Boss Difficulty (is that not a trope anymore?).

Mostly to be an non-conformist. That's a good way to do a downer ending I think.

Read this post for my theory
slimcoder Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Feb 16th 2020 at 4:09:25 PM

What downer ending?

Can you see all of me? Walk into my mystery. Do you remember me? Capture you or set you free I am all. I am all... I am all of me
GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
Feb 16th 2020 at 4:11:01 PM

[up][up] I think it's Degraded Boss now.

I just keep having traumatic flash backs to D Gray Man, where at first one Level 3 Akuma was strong enough to almost kill one of the main characters and give her a plot significant hair cut. Then later on the heroes are capable of beating thousands of them in one move.

Edited by GNinja on Feb 16th 2020 at 12:12:44 PM

Kaze ni Nare!
FergardStratoavis Booby from High as a Kite Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Booby
Feb 16th 2020 at 4:15:47 PM

[up] Honestly, this is such a shonen trope, I'd be surprised if we didn't get it in MHA. Hell, we already did with regular Nomus. USJ Nomu was a Super Prototype tailor made to defeat All Might; Hosu Nomus were considerably less impressive - and they still needed Endeavor (and Gran Torino) to show up, since they were dealing with local heroes no sweat, so it's not like they're that much less dangerous.

Hell, the Summer Camp Nomu was literally the only villain present who could not be challenged (Muscular being a close second, but OFA shenanigans). The only thing Awase could do was to lug Yaomomo and leg it.

There is a sensible explanation as to why High-Ends met here would be less dangerous (as in, they were literally just broken out of their vats), and it's not like they're suddenly cannon fodder. And even if they are weaker, it's still 2 v. 5(more?), and Miruko already took a serious hit before the fight began in earnest.

Edited by FergardStratoavis on Feb 16th 2020 at 1:17:30 PM

The Speed of Furious Astronomy
Gilphon Untrustworthy from The Third Sound Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Untrustworthy
Feb 16th 2020 at 5:12:39 PM

Man. People keep bringing up the idea that the first High End gave All Might trouble. But it kind of didn't? Like he annihilated it with pretty minimal effort. The tension in that sequence came from the fact that All Might was pushing the end of his time limit and needed to win super quickly while still sparing enough power to be able to stand up to Shiragaki, not because there was any doubt about whether or not he could manage the thing under normal circumstances. And it just kind of stood there dumbly tanking his attacks the whole time.

And, indeed, it obviously couldn't have beaten All Might, because If OFA was capable of finding a combination of quirks that could beat All Might, he wouldn't have lost to him in the first place.

Really, for my money, the more impressive showing was from Hood, what with that thing requiring Endeavour and Hawks working together to take it down, and the effort taking enough out of both that they had to go straight to the hospital afterwards. Which is pretty terrifying, given that those are the two strongest heroes.

But that's a level of strength that's kind of unacceptable of our current narratives purposes, because they're a bunch of personality-less goons, and we need to have our important heavy hitters fighting the real characters. They need to be strong enough to plausibly occupy the time of 'strong-but-not-important-enough-to-make-major contributions-to-the-final-arc' characters like Miriko, but they can't be so strong that Miriko doesn't plausibly stand a chance.

"Canada Day is over, and now begins the endless dark of the Canada Night."
Feb 16th 2020 at 7:12:43 PM

Man. People keep bringing up the idea that the first High End gave All Might trouble. But it kind of didn't? Like he annihilated it with pretty minimal effort. The tension in that sequence came from the fact that All Might was pushing the end of his time limit and needed to win super quickly while still sparing enough power to be able to stand up to Shiragaki, not because there was any doubt about whether or not he could manage the thing under normal circumstances. And it just kind of stood there dumbly tanking his attacks the whole time.

USJ wasn't a High End, which was to All Might's advantage looking back. That Nomu shut down after he sent it flying, ultimately it was no worse for wear when the police retrieved him. Had he possessed the level of autonomy Hood did All Might could have lost.

And, indeed, it obviously couldn't have beaten All Might, because If OFA was capable of finding a combination of quirks that could beat All Might, he wouldn't have lost to him in the first place.

Chances are those Quirks weren't available to him the last time they fought, IIRC that was pretty much stated with Super Regen.

Gilphon Untrustworthy from The Third Sound Relationship Status: Having tea with Cthulhu
Untrustworthy
Feb 16th 2020 at 8:19:19 PM

I mean, sure, but that's a more specific case of general case in which losing to All Might the first time made him lose all the quirks he'd spent centuries saving up, and hence being relatively weak at Kamino. Surely if he had a way that he felt could've reliably taken down All Might, he would've kept it on himself and used it during Kamino, not pushed it onto to a random Noumu.

Like, I feel like it makes the most sense to consider it an experiment; OFA going 'well, since All Might's weaker than he used to be, maybe this will be enough to beat him?' And then it wasn't enough to beat him at all, so the experiment was deemed a failure.

"Canada Day is over, and now begins the endless dark of the Canada Night."
Feb 17th 2020 at 1:38:34 AM

This doesn't necessarily apply to G Ninja, but I'll note that one complaint with things like this is that people go on about authors making villains too strong, and then not pulling off protagonists being able to handle them, or otherwise dealing with protagonist that only react to stimuli.

But that's not the case here, and the situation being potentially manageable (I give it coin flip on whether the Heroes actually win overall here) is because they were acting proactively in a way to makes sense.

Obviously there are still going to be some complaints but, well, that's just something that occurs to me.

asterism Relationship Status: Hoping Senpai notices me
Feb 17th 2020 at 2:08:44 AM

The USJ Noumu wasn't meant to kill All Might tho. It was just meant to distract him while Kurogiri (the actual first High End Noumu) killed him.

New World Order
FergardStratoavis Booby from High as a Kite Relationship Status: I get a feeling so complicated...
Booby
Feb 17th 2020 at 2:16:41 AM

We didn't really know that at the time. It's likely Shigaraki himself didn't know that at the time.

And while USJ Nomu was ultimately but a road bump for All Might, it still came with some physical damage - and more importantly, shortened his time limit. And it was still the most impressive Nomu around the block until Hood showed up.

The Speed of Furious Astronomy
M84 Light our darkest hour! from Our little blue planet Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Light our darkest hour!
Feb 17th 2020 at 2:22:49 AM

Gotta admit, I kind of expect the doctor to meet his end at the hands of one or more of the Noumu.

Turned Against Their Masters is the natural outcome for most Mad Scientist villains, after all.

Disgusted, but not surprised
slimcoder Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Black-Hearted Evil or Brave-Hearted Hero
Feb 17th 2020 at 2:25:03 AM

I kinda expect a High-End to become a good guy.

Like when you have previously mindless mooks finally gain some manner of sentience, itís common to have at least one turn to the side of Justice.

Can you see all of me? Walk into my mystery. Do you remember me? Capture you or set you free I am all. I am all... I am all of me
Feb 17th 2020 at 2:28:58 AM

We don't know if Kurogiri is a High-End Nomu.

He seems to be something else altogether. He only has one quirk, even if it's an amalgamation, and his brain functions are far superior to what we've seen from High-Ends.

GNinja The Element of Hyperbole. from The deepest, darkest corner of his mind. Relationship Status: I'd need a PowerPoint presentation
The Element of Hyperbole.
Feb 17th 2020 at 2:33:35 AM

@LSBK Hell, two of my favourite arcs involved the heroes being impressively pro-active. The fight with AFO and the Overhaul arc. It's always been a strength of the series.

Kaze ni Nare!

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