Mass Effect General Discussion (spoilers)

With Spectres, I would argue that they'd be a terrible idea in real life. However, one probably should ask what their history in-universe is. Admittedly, I haven't really dug that deep into the lore, but from what I gather the Council somehow prevents rampant abuse of their power (through their screening processes, self-policing by other spectres, and their ability to revoke spectre status).

You also got to keep in mind they're a sort of "special circumstances" group, an exception to the way the Council normally conducts business. It's a bit similar to the fallacy that Extra Credits committed when discussing The Division. The Players in that game don't follow normal due process, but they are in a situation where normal due process wouldn't apply (IE, Martial Law). Or to take the metaphor further, it might be a bit like complaining about a police officer in a movie searching or entering property without the owner's permission...except the cop either does have a warrant or is in a situation where he wouldn't legally need one.

Mind you, the Spectres wouldn't work very well in real life (or at least, having them be de jure above the law). In fact, a lot of the things they do in-universe to keep them in check are really just making them follow laws by another name. Plus, it makes a lot more sense to have your rules have exceptions that can be approved of with court orders and the like, rather than leaving it up to the spectre on the ground.

One of the worst things about the sequels is that they severely undervalue the concept of being a Spectre, which was the single biggest thing in the original game.

Like in ME 2 you can become a Spectre or tell the Council off and there's no repercussions despite working with a galactic terror cell and presumably faking your death, and then in ME 3 it's "hey you're a Spectre again now that the galaxy is on fire, whatever."

I think its hard to assume you're a terrorist in the fact that your first act upon awakening is contacting your local representative, informing them of the situation, and then going off to territory outside of Citadel Control.

Spectres are not above the law, merely that they are given open jurisdiction to operate. You get some special privileges as a Spectre, but at no point do you walk in, say "I'm a Spectre" and they get completely out of your way. How vulnerable you are to legal recourse depends on how careful you are with breaking laws. Sarens dismissal was seen as rare but not unheard of.

The issue with Saren seems to be that he was recruited into the Spectres at too young an age. He was the youngest Turian to ever be recruited into the Spectres. He had a lot of talent and ability, but he had yet to gain wisdom.

The Council had plenty of warning signs that Saren was going to be trouble, given that his career was marked by ruthlessness along with efficiency. Too bad the Council cared more about the latter.

But tbf, whodathunk that someone whose two guiding principles were "Never kill anyone without a good reason" and "You can always find a reason to kill someone" would be trouble? /sarc

Also, the whole "loyalty" to your race is a weird one - the asari have a representative but are a loose coalition of Republics. So, a SPECTRA MAY have more loyalty to a specific colony or Republic; similarly, the Salarians are heavily HEAVILY family focused, so a Salrian SPECTRE could have more vested interests to their clan.

The one we met in 3 wasn't too bad and Captain Kirrahe (LEGEND) was fairly balanced.

I agree that SPECTRE is just a nice way to give you PLAYER POWER in Universe, but it's a weirdly wasted opportunity - ME 2 could have the Council saying "Infiltrate Cerberus, find out what you can". And yes, they organisation of them as a unit is weird. But then, on reflection, so is the concept of an Adventurers guild, or Thieves guild in fantasy. At least insofar as they become these massive, sprawling enterprises. Again, it's a rationale for Player Power.

As for him being a token - the Volus Ambassador comments on how it seems to be a power play. And before Sovereign, it was just a trial run, with some additional hoops. It's more apparent in the sequel when Udina is fairly dismissive and acts like you've done your job, in terms of what they needed you for - a Council seat, access to the SPECTRE corps.

Huh Asari are coalition of mutliple republics? Didn't know that.

Man it would have been cool exploring those alien homeworlds. The only one we explored in any good detail is the Krogan's Tuchanka.

With the Asari & Salarian's, it was just one mission while the galaxy was under siege of Reaper invasion & in the Turian's case we didn't even go to Palavan, just its moon. Biggest cocktease ever.

Kirrahe is Salarian Special Forces so he's more like an N7 officer.

My take on the Specters is they're also more like the Grey Wardens in the context of the reality of what they do is a lot darker than the propaganda that exists around them. A bit like spies with James Bond, the Specters are mostly meant to be people like Saren (who is exactly the kind of person they're meant to be) and that Asari agent you fight in Lair of the Shadow Broker. They're shady people with extra-judicial killing powers that the other races turn a blind eye to. It may be a cultural thing given the Asari have the Justicars as a thing.

Paragon Shepard is doing it wrong, ironically, while Renegade Shepard is how it's normally meant to go.

Which is funny, because as an N7, Shep should already have been knee deep in unpleasant military operations. SF don't do "law enforcement" - they're the sharp end, doing the "Whilst we're not at war, we're still killing unpleasant people" style of "justified" work.

Of course, the SPECTRE corp also do things like get involved in corporate shenanigans and so on, both directly and crossing over into civil affairs. So Shep is pretty inexperienced on that front.

Him getting judgmental over the Shadow Broker and Tela Vasir is actually rather hypocritical.

A Renegade Shepard would definitely be a hypocrite for trying to call her out.

Its hypocritical from all ends because no matter what your Paragon Shepard's opinion on the subject, they've been forced to work with Cerberus because they're the only game in town.

I always felt they needed Anderson or Udina to order you to do it as a way to justify Paragon Shep's involvement.

I believe that is the case there because I've seen players utterly disdain the Alliance and all for other races, which seems to miss that you're still Humanity's Specter.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Aug 22nd 2019 at 6:29:46 AM

Replaying the trilogy right now, and man, while quite a few character changed between games, I completely forgot that Wreav did too, and not just his color.

(Please don't hate me, I love Wrex, but I just wanted to do something different)

I mean yeah, he was a traditionalist already in ME2, but he was kinda....laid back. Even downright respectful and nice towards Shepard.

In ME3, he is a complete and utter, blodd-thirsty dick (thus no regrets faking the Genopphage with my boy Mordin). I mean, I guess it can be explained away with Bitch in Sheep's Clothing, but still.

Edited by Forenperser on Aug 31st 2019 at 8:31:10 PM

Wreav may have been a case of be polite while he's weak... but the moment he is in a position of power... well He lets it go to his head

And that's quite on-character for him, if you ask me. Guy is just plain dumb next to Wrex. Short-sighted to an absurd degree.

-snip, plenty of snapping at a perceived misspelling-

Edited by Eriorguez on Aug 31st 2019 at 3:00:40 PM

Specter is, to my knowledge, the most commonly used spelling in American English; it fits in with a common, though not universal, trend of replacing -re with -er. As far as the Mass Effect term goes it's pretty consistently spelt 'Spectre', but more generally I certainly don't think specter is wrong.

Ah, my bad then; shouldn't give that much thought, one of my mother tongues uses "cocodrile", so to speak.

Might wanna edit that bit out then or at least make it sound less rude.

Edited by slimcoder on Aug 31st 2019 at 5:45:07 AM

It's funny, after our discussion on Spectre authority I'm setting up a character for a Dn D campaign, and explicitly designed a Lawful Evil elf Rogue with the equivalent of a Spectre position. I called it a Marshall because I equated it with US Marshalls, and even named the character Thane Drell.

It's a shame that Spectres get so little focus within the trilogy, really.

I mean, the only ones other than Shepard who really matter are Saren and Vasir.....both of which are rogue agents.

Jondum Bau is just a side character, and Ashley/Kaidan.....honestly, I like them, but there was no point in making them Spectres at all. No impact on the story whatsoever.

EDIT: Oh yeah and there was.....Nihlus.

Edited by Forenperser on Sep 1st 2019 at 12:45:26 PM

This was said before but its another consequence of Bioware's habit of having their games all end up with this big Ultimate Evil threat, whose threat level is so great it requires all the attention.

Cause the mythology & intergalactic politics of the Mass Effect universe, in & of itself is enough to make an infinite possible story-lines but the existence of the Reapers wound taking away all the focus.

Shit Shepard's Specter status stops mattering after the 1st game.

Edited by slimcoder on Sep 1st 2019 at 3:58:23 AM

Slice of Life is generally rare among anything with a lot of money involved. I recall a movie screenwriter outright said the bigger the budget the more lives have to be at stake.

Given the overall stakes in the main story, the concept of the Spectre was not even really needed. Shepard could have just remained an Alliance commander working in a joint venture to track down Saren. ME-2 didn't need it at all because he was working with Cerberus outside council space anyway, and ME-3 the stakes were high enough they could have just given him open authority to move from system to system. The Spectre concept would have been best applied when it comes to direct missions to key locations that further develop the setting, versus the main story that kept to more remote colonies, outposts and space stations.

The general lack of Slice of Life is why I love the Citadel DLC.

They could've done more games set in the Mass Effect setting, using smaller stakes to do a deeper exploration. Maybe a game where we play a non-human Spectre, though that would require Bio Ware believe that players can relate to non-human characters. But yeah, a game where you play an asari spectre hunting down some terrorists, or something. Show more aliens, too. The first game hints at there being a lot more alien species than the ones shown, but that was pretty much dropped in the sequels.

Instead, Bio Ware decided to just straight-up abandon their setting. Disappointing.

In theory, it can be revived at any time; Andromeda left plenty of openings. But Bioware has a lot of problems right now, and EA isn't fond of single player games so they were happy to put an early kibosh on this.

I wish a company known for single player games would buy the property, but at the moment we don't have anyone who comes even close to that type of game. Still, maybe in twenty years it will get revived by someone.

I feel like Guerrilla Games would be up to the challenge, but I'd rather they just make Horizon Zero Dawn 2 than try to revive a series that's burnt through all its audience's goodwill.

Edited by Primis on Sep 2nd 2019 at 5:05:59 AM