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Thought we had a topic for this, but I couldn't find it. So I made my own.
So Micheal B. Jordan is set to play the Human Torch and they're apparently considering having a woman play Dr. Doom.
edited 5th Feb '14 12:24:21 PM by TheOtherSteve
edited 5th Feb '14 12:30:00 PM by TheSpaceJawa
Oh boy, this won't end well...
Well, it's from the director of Chronicle, which was damn good, but I can't see this working out. And the kid who's reportedly in talks to play Mr.Fantastic has the most punchable face ever.
I don't care if they make the Storms black. People who complained about that are stupid. People who think that Fem Doom would be just a leeetle bit off are entirely justified. He's Victor Mc Imposing Booming Voice Von Doom, for the love of Kirby!
And yet, there are already people who are claiming the people who are opposed to a female Dr. Doom are sexist for that reason. At least, I think I've seen as much.
If I was mistaken, though, it's certainly only a matter of time before it happens for real. And you better believe that if they do make Dr. Doom a women those people will be out in full force against anyone who objects to the change.
Changing the race of the Storms (because, ideally, if they're going to change one, they should change both of them) is one thing and workable.
Changing a major character from a man to a woman like this, not so much.
edited 5th Feb '14 12:59:25 PM by TheSpaceJawa
I don't like the idea of a female Doom because I'm afraid they're going to change the relationship between her and Reed to him dumping her for Sue.
At least not when that character's entire schtick is being an over the top old school evil overlord.
Plus, saying they're "open" to him being played by a woman "if they find the right actress" just screams of some kind of badly-planned "oh look at us being all modern and stuff" ploy. Bad an idea as it is, if they want Dr. Doom as a woman they should just commit to the idea rather than thinking the character can be played the same way regardless.
Sure, the idea can be done right (see Joan Watson - Elementary - and even that required significant work to the character) but you can't undertake such a change so lightly. Nor should it be anything other than the rare exception.
There's nothing to me about Doom that says he HAS to be a man, to be honest. You look at some of the fine female thespians coming out of places like Britain and I can very easily see a woman pulling off a character that pompous and bombastic in nature.
The way they've stated it suggests they plan to play the character about the same way regardless of whether Doom's a man or woman, which is just asking for disaster.
For someone like Doom, to rewrite him as a her would require significant changes to the character to reflect the new version, and the more changes you have to make for such a decision, the greater chance you have of making a complete mess of the decision and - by extension - the movie as a whole.
Especially given his history with the titular Fantastic Four. We're talking about a guy who - for example - has tried to steal Sue Storm away from Richards simply to spite Richards. Except what happens to that kind of characterization - the kind of characterization that is central to the character - if Doom is now a woman? It's not just the problem that happens with Doom, it's also a problem of how does it affect his relationship with the main characters, something that has been a key to the the whole F4 vs Doom setup for just about forever.
edited 5th Feb '14 1:41:37 PM by TheSpaceJawa
That seems to be a pretty big assumption, that it might ruin the movie. What changes does it require, anyway?
Her being named Victoria instead of Victor?
Also, I don't really have a problem with either doing a Race Lift on Sue or having Johnny be an adopted brother.
edited 5th Feb '14 1:42:36 PM by Hodor
First, let me note that I don't really read comics; my main exposure to superheroes has been a mix of cartoon series, movies and Pop-Cultural Osmosis, I believe.
That said, I don't see a problem with a female Doom: the ham should work just as well and the relationships shouldn't be a problem (she could still steal Sue from Reed: all that calls for is Sue being bisexual), it seems to me. That a large part of Doom's characterisation is being a classic hammy Evil Overlord actually makes a change of gender easier, it seems to me: little to none of that seems gender-reliant to me.
You say as though that is no big deal.
Not to mention that it requires changing that part of Doom's characterization as well.
EDIT: Maybe this is a better way of looking at it - what benefit would there be to making Dr. Doom a woman? Other than for them to be able to say "We can"?
Rather than asking "why not?", how about instead asking "Why should they"?
Answer that question for me: Why should they make Dr. Doom a woman?
edited 5th Feb '14 2:19:04 PM by TheSpaceJawa
Here is my take on casting Doom as a woman.
Hollywood is a lot more flexible on what it will allow its actors to look like than its actresses. If they cast a woman, then she will be an attractive woman. If they cast an attractive woman, they will want to showcase her beauty. If they want to showcase her beauty, they can't have her be disfigured, because Hollywood women can't be ugly and disfigured. So the entire basis for Doom's relationship to Reed has to go, as well as the armor and facemask, because audiences can't see her curves through those.
No Hollywood executive is going to sign off on casting a female character as major as the main villain of the story and NOT let the camera lovingly caress every feature of her body. The temptation to slap on romantic undertones to her conflict with Reed will also be very strong, and it will be downright impressive if they resist that. And, of course, executives are still scared of showcasing male protagonists physically beating women, so there will also be a strong temptation to throw in a different villain to be the MAIN villain, while Doom is delegated to a side villain or even minion to said villain, culminating in a Designated Chick Fight with Sue - possibly over Reed's love.
How much of this still sounds like Doom? It's not IMPOSSIBLE to Gender-Flip Doom and pull it off well, but I don't trust Hollywood to do so.
edited 5th Feb '14 2:28:38 PM by TobiasDrake
Also if they really wanted a female villain I have no idea why they couldn't use Lucia Von Bardas instead with Doom as a bigger bad or something.
Plus, if you're open to the idea of Dr. Doom being cast as a woman and think it's no big deal, let's consider the idea with other major characters being adapted for a reboot where the studio is "open to them being played by a woman". For example:
Shall I go on?
And there's that. If they're really so open to the idea of a "Female Dr. Doom", why could they not instead be open to the idea of a Dr. Doom related character taking his place and bringing in the real Doom later?
edited 5th Feb '14 2:33:45 PM by TheSpaceJawa
I'd be cool with that. Whatevs.
Regarding "why" vs. "why not", you make a valid point, I feel, albeit only a point that's a significant obstacle when combined with other issues against a female Doom, such as Tobias raises.
Come to think of it, if there are differences in characterisation in a female Doom then those might make for an interesting reason in an of themselves; something similar to fan-works that one sees sometimes depicting Star Wars characters in the Wild West, or Superman if he had been raised by a different family: the change in dynamic is interesting to see.
Tobias makes a good point with regard to Hollywood's likely treatment of a female Doom, I fear — although I'd like to note that this seems to me to be an issue with Hollywood, rather than an inherent issue with a female Doom. Still, one may hope for different treatment than that...
I believe they're referring to the fact that Hollywood isn't always open to the idea of having LGBT characters. I'm not sure I trust them with Female Doom either to be honest. It's certainly not a change you make right away to a property that's struggling to get footing.
The disfigurement of Doom is the aspect that the female version would have to contend the most with.
Also the evil Lesbian trying to steal Sue away from a wholesome heterosexual relationship is probably not the best evil plan they could have Dr Doom pursuing.
Basically it's not a bad idea in itself but there are too many things that could go wrong for it to be worthwhile.
Also if you cant answer the fundamental question "Why" you should probably just drop it.
Why did Marvel change the Mandarin? Because the original is a messload of Unfortunate Implications.
Why is Fox doing this? Because they can't think of any other way to put asses in seats for another Fantastic Four movie.
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