CW's Flash

Probably, she should have both parents now.

If that Green Arrow & the Canaries spinoff happens, I'd love it if we got a teamup between Mia's Green Arrow and Nora's XS.

Speaking of perfect resurrections, you know what would be awesome to see? In this universe, Leonard Snart is back, alive, and running the Rogues as the band of Friendly Enemy Noble Demons they always could have been.

Like, the way I see it working, in this universe both Len and Rory served with the Legends, but both managed to survive. After a couple years of heroing and character development, Len eventually decided he still liked crime better and left to forge the Rogues as a band of Gentlemen Thieves, while they both accepted that the Legends were good for Mick and so split on good terms.

I just want DC's best "heroic villain / villainous hero" back, really. Come to think of it, over on Arrow this would also be a perfect opportunity to bring Laurel back (since both other Canaries are in the future, and since Arrow is ending anyway they don't have to commit to it). And Oliver making a perfect world but not bringing Laurel back would be a bit suspect.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 25th 2020 at 10:57:38 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

I don't want the original Snart back as a villain. It would, I think, erase a lot of his character development.

But that doesn't mean we can't have a Leonard Snart show up. Over in Supergirl, five different Brainiac Fives show up and in Batwoman a completely good Beth shows up, so I hope we see a villainous Snart show up confused about the fact that he's now in a completely different world, but still dedicated to committing crimes.

I don't see how, especially given the way I outlined him. Hell, in this show we have Rory who continues to be a overt thief who easily jumps to murder whenever he has to.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 25th 2020 at 11:30:01 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

Both of those might run into issues depending on the availability of Wentworth Miller. If the voice cameo was the most he was willing to do, then both are kinda sunk unless we get a different Snart or a new Captain Cold. Has there been anyone else that has taken the mantle in the comics?

Rory might jump to stealing and murder, but he also does it to benefit the Legends, whom he considers family. Snart might go back to being a thief, sure, but I don't think he would have left the Legends or Mick behind.

There's a great conversation Mick has with an earlier version of Snart that I think outlines this:

Edited by alliterator on Jan 26th 2020 at 7:45:53 AM

That’s why I pointed out a scene where Snart acknowledges that the Legends were good for Mick but chooses to go his own way, and them parting amiably, would be essential.

This is a superhero universe: as Mick shows, in such a universe being a super criminal (especially a thief, as Len and Rory prefer to be) and being a good person are in now way required to be mutually exclusive.

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

But they were good for Snart, too, so I don't see him leaving with an excuse as flimsy as "it wasn't for me."

Then maybe they don't make it that flimsy. Not only is that single, very simple reason is hardly the only one they could use, but more to the point the fact that it can be stated simply or in a single phrase in no way implies that it's incapable of being a strong, well developed character moment.

Though, on the flipside, other characters have left the Legends for what is essentially the same reason in the past. It's hardly unprecedented.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 26th 2020 at 5:55:57 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

• The Hawks left because they had finally defeated Vandal Savage and so could live a quiet life together without becoming worried over getting killed.
• Rip left to form the Time Bureau and also because he realized they were in good hands with Sara as captain. (Then he died.)
• Jax left because he couldn't stand being on the ship without Professor Stein and he needed to figure out things by himself.
• Amaya left because she needed to preserve the timeline.
• Wally left because he was still finding himself (and the actor wanted a break).
• Mona left because, apparently, she couldn't be an author on the Waverider? Whatever, she's Mona.

The only one who left because "it wasn't for them" were Mona and Wally and that was due to the actors no longer wanting to be on the show. And Wally, in fact, left off-screen.

If Wentworth Miller really did want to come back and be on The Flash, there needs to be a better reason for why he left the Waverider than "because it wasn't for me" when everything on the show (and even Mick himself) said it was. Snart not only liked being on the ship, he liked the people on it, choosing them over Mick at one point and then sacrificing himself for them. Sure, the only people left from his time are Mick, Sara, and Ray, but then use that as an excuse for why he left. "I don't like the new people."

In any case, bringing him back from his Heroic Sacrifice would be a little weird, too, because, after all, it happened in the Vanishing Point, the space outside of time and space, so that part would have been left untouched by the new Big Bang. Better to just pull a different version of Snart, like they did when they brought in Citizen Cold from Earth-X.

And as I said:

The assumption that it would just be "I'm not feeling it anymore" without any actual character reason or development behind it doesn't make an awful lot of sense, especially given that - as you just noted - all the characters who previously left peppered their reasons with character specific reasoning.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 26th 2020 at 8:06:19 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

So your reason for why Snart should come back to life and then leave the Waverider should be..."they'll think of a reason"?

...Or why not just get a Snart from an alternate universe and not tarnish this Snart's death?

Assuming they did bring Snart back, the simplest method to send him on his own way is to say he needs to help out his sister with something.

Where are you getting the idea that's my reason he should come back? My reason, as stated way back when, is that it would be an interesting direction for the character that both works with the way he's been established in this series, allow them to incorporate more of what they were unable to adapt of what they were unable to do thanks to limitations in previous seasons / series. Captain Cold is one of DC's most interesting and multifaceted characters, and they did so well building him up thus far in the CW that it would be fantastic to see him fully realized in this setting now that they potentially have the resources to do so.

My "the don't have to be that simple" was a response to your picking a very specific, generalized part of what I said and claiming that that was the only way possible to do it - without actually justifying why you thought it had to be, notably.

Frankly, this looks like another attempt to do that, which... well... I keep getting the impression you're just trying to cherry pick me, but none of the things you're accusing my points of being make a lot of sense. For one, you're not really paying attention to the flow of the conversation any more.

At the very least, instead of trying to poke and prod at things you think you can dismiss, you could try not constantly going on the attack and instead explaining what you think. So far you've just been going "no it's not" and sidestepping reasons by trying to levy another dismissal.

For example:

"Tarnish" how? Especially given how, as I've said before, the idea that him going back to crime would somehow require undoing his character development doesn't hold a lot of water.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 26th 2020 at 10:47:00 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

My justification is that Snart, due to his character development on the show, wouldn't leave the Legends. Your response to that still appears to be "Sure he would because reasons."

Yes, he can still be a criminal. But he can be a criminal with the Legends, just like Mick. For him to leave the family he found because of some nebulous reason is silly. It's better just to grab a different version of him.

And yes, reversing his Heroic Sacrifice would tarnish it. It wouldn't be a Heroic Sacrifice then.

Your reasoning for wanting Captain Cold back is that there are plenty of stories left to tell with that character — except, really, there aren't. There are stories about him being a Noble Demon, which is what we already got, and then there are stories about him being a supervillain, which wouldn't make sense with his character development. Sure, he can go back to being a criminal (I'd say that he never stopped being a criminal), but why should we care? If he poses no threat to the Flash, why would he even show up on the show? Another ice-themed member of the STAR Labs?

Edited by alliterator on Jan 27th 2020 at 1:40:45 AM

It's always less effective to assume that creativity is impossible.

Maybe he wants to be with his sister, who he left behind, and help her though a rough spot. Maybe he feels more at home in Central City, more at peace in his Friendly Enemy relationship with Barry, or has to join forces with character in Central City and decides he'd rather stay. Maybe he sees that the criminal element in Central City needs a strong, controlling force to keep it from getting out of hand. Maybe - yes - he just prefers to be the person he wants to be, rather than the person Rip Hunter decided he should be: again, the simplicity of that doesn't make it any less strong a reason.

Maybe this, maybe that. The thing they think up could easily be all or even none of those things, and honestly - as I said - it's irrelevant.

All this "if you can't tell me a complete, detailed reason that I want to accept RIGHT NOW then it's impossible" posts - as if you're entitled to other people being required to prove that your opinions aren't right - is not just fallacious, it's just trying to force a point that probably shouldn't be.

The beauty of character is that they can make decisions. Snart could choose to leave the Waverider because he is a character that can make those decisions. The Watsonian reason could be many things, yes, and it's undefinable what those reasons might be because there are many options. And that's because a good character has facets that allow such things to be justified. And yes, it is on the writer to justify those things. It's not a bug, it's a feature.

That's an odd thing to say about a network show built on creating new stories perpetually.

Furthermore, I was under the impression that Cold was killed off because they wouldn't be able to use Wentworth Miller as a series regular any more, not because they felt the character was done.

These don't make a lot of sense together. So he can be a supervillain, but only if he does it with the Legends?

The character wasn't written for Legends of Tomorrow in the first place. It's not like he's inextricably linked with the concept. Indeed, the very concept of this series is built on the fact that these characters don't have to be anywhere specific to be themselves.

There are reasons to like characters beyond the physical. Likewise, there are many, many antagonists who work - and work well - despite not wanting to or being able to harm the hero. It's not exactly a new and unprecedented concept.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2020 at 2:05:05 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

I'm not asking for a reason for him to leave the Legends, I'm asking why even bring him back in the first place? I'm not asking for a Watsonian reason, but a Doylist one. Why bring back this version and not a completely different version? Why do you keep insisting that his Heroic Sacrifice be reversed and him revert back to a life of crime when it was clear that he much preferred being on the Legends?

Nothing's impossible, but generally, characters should go forward rather than revert back. Snart coming back just to become a criminal in Central City again — which we've already seen — is going backwards. Generally, the times they've brought Snart back — through time travel or alternate universes — it's because they wanted to do something different with the character. I don't really care if he becomes a criminal in Central City again, because I've already seen that and it became boring back in Season 2.

Snart doesn't make any decisions; the writers make decisions for the characters.

No show — except perhaps Doctor Who — can keep on creating new stories perpetually. And even Doctor Who knew when to have a character's arc come to an end. Everything needs to end or else there's no point in it.

No, I said that him being a supervillain wouldn't make sense with his character development in Legends.

Legends works because it took disparate characters that weren't being well-served on their own shows and created a show entirely around them. Sara went from dead to being a great captain. Ray went from being a second-rate Iron Man knock-off to being a cheerful, super positive Genki Guy. Mick got pretty much all his characterization on the show. And though characters have left — mainly due to actors wanting to do other things — it has always made sense. Captain Cold suddenly returning to life (which wouldn't make sense — see, again, the Vanishing Point) and then leaving wouldn't make sense unless you built an entire story arc around it, which I doubt is something they want to do.

Because I think it would be a fun idea and good use of the charcter that would work well with how he's been developed? I said that already. Twice, I think.

I think I'll ask a more pertinent question: why turn a simple difference of what we see in a character into an inquisition?

I'm not usually this direct, so I apologize in advance, but it's late and this was a really weird and random thing to pick a fight over. You've spent the last half of the page trying to push me into explaining with more and more detail why I think my opinion on what would be an interesting character move has credit, during which you've outright ignored most of what I've had to say, pretended as if I never said things I did or trying to push the idea that I meant things I didn't, or simply acted as though any explanation I gave didn't exist. Hell, everything in is something I've already answered in detail (detail which was never returned) - repeating myself again probably isn't going to do much but derail the thread further.

Which leads me to a pretty blunt statement: it's okay to just say "I don't like that idea, and I'd rather they do something else" and leave it at that. It doesn't have to be "this idea can never work and you have prove it to me that it could because I don't like it," especially when your reasoning is clearly just "I like it the way it is and don't want it to change" despite your attempt to paint your opinions as fact - which is why I kept asking you for justification or reason for your points beyond "no it isn't," so that this could turn into an actual conversation vs you just demanding to be proven wrong.

As I mentioned before, you're not actually entitled to such a thing. I probably shouldn't have let this turn into such a heavy debate by humoring you in the first place.

You think Snart should remain dead? Cool. I think Snart would be better served coming back and being reworked into the narrative. Also cool. That's not going to change. Aren't opinions fun? Conversation over.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2020 at 2:45:17 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

I didn't think your idea would work and I stated so before. Generally, people back up their statements with reasons, which is what I did.

Outright saying "your ideas are flimsy because I said so" almost right off the bat while ignoring what they have to say, trying to justify that by generalizing and nitpicking general statements without cause, and claiming that someone's opinion "tarnishes" canon because they don't agree with you aren't really examples of just stating one's opinion. Those are signs of picking a fight, and you did in fact push something simple into a debate.

And - I'll be fair - I'm someone who rather likes debate so I did lean into it for a while, and I apologize for my part in derailing the thread as well.

But next time, don't. At least not to such a large scale, defensive extent. Keep it casual, without having to find reasons to keep the cannons firing. I say this in part because this isn't the first time, but save that kind of fervor for topics that aren't legitimately just a question of preference.

Edit: Dang, I actually really hate that I had to say that, since I'm generally vehemently against controlling what conversation do or don't happen, but that was just heading into a bad, very deraily direction.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 27th 2020 at 3:04:36 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

Well, it's a good thing I didn't write that, did I? "I don't want the original Snart back as a villain. It would, I think, erase a lot of his character development."

Your answer was, essentially, "No, it wouldn't!" and then went downhill from there.

Edited by alliterator on Jan 27th 2020 at 7:07:16 AM

Cool. Like I said, conversation over.

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.

So shifting the subject a bit, who do you think will come back since the shows have playing the resurrection card? Genuinely think Henry and probably Dante have a good shot. And assuming Nash won't be the last Wells, maybe they bring in one native to Earth-Prime along with Tess Morgan.

Them not bringing back Earth-1 Laurel kind of sucks, especially since with the current Laurel in the future and Arrow over, they would've had no obligation to ever follow up on it.

It would be really interesting if the "new Wells" after this is the original Wells who was killed by Reverse Flash (that one was so different from all the other ones we saw), though I'm not sure how it would work with Barry's backstory.

Edited by KnownUnknown on Jan 28th 2020 at 10:41:24 AM

"The difference between reality and fiction is that fiction has to make sense." - Tom Clancy, paraphrasing Mark Twain.