Actually, there was ONE pony who went "Woah, is that a dragon?" And her name is Fluttershy. Way back in the first episode. Because back then, dragons were this incredibly rare creature that inspired wonder in those who saw Spike. But that was changed pretty much immediately afterwards, just like some other early traits of Spike.

"I didn't mean to barge in on you." This goes a bit too far with it though, crossing the line from ridiculous to uncomfortable. The look he gives Twilight that says he's totally plotting how to get all up inside her business end pushes it into creep territory. Which, given that Sludge is the episode's antagonist, is probably deliberate. He's pretending to be Spike's dad to take advantage of him and Twilight; having certain intentions towards Spike's caretaker does feel disgustingly appropriate for his role.

I'm not sure what the reasoning here is. The joke about casual nudity is pretty obvious, but I don't there's any way to reliably assign that kind of intention into a character without making a lot of assumptions that just aren't supported within the episode's text.

This sort of feels like an attempt look for a reason to rag on Josh Haber, when the scene as we saw it in the episode was likely not entirely under his control. The bit where Twilight's eyes move over Sludge's junk strikes me more as the sort of blink-and-you'll-miss it "sneak shit past the radar" gag that's usually done by storyboarders or animators.

Edited by Zennistrad on Oct 7th 2018 at 4:26:12 AM

My Zephyr / Rainbow Headcanon

Her eyes slowly sink to his crotch, then she panics, looks away, and throws a hoof over her eyes. He, in response, makes no effort to cover up but instead lays there on full display, grinning smugly at her in his open bathrobe.

There are not a lot of situations a young woman will find herself in, in which a middle-aged dude displays his junk to her in an open bathrobe with a smug grin. There's pretty much just one context for that. At that point, the joke stops being about a character being inadvertently exposed; he is deliberately, consciously exposing himself to her.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 7th 2018 at 3:54:57 AM

It didn't sound to me like you were just talking about indecent exposure though. You said he was "totally plotting how to get all up inside her business end," which sounds a lot closer to premeditated sexual assault, if not outright rape.

That's a pretty alarming thing to hear about a little girl's show.

Edited by Zennistrad on Oct 7th 2018 at 7:02:14 AM

I'm now imagining dragon parents teaching their kids how to use their wings so they can more efficiently sod off during their molting.

The whole thing about dragons molting does raise a lot more questions than it answers. Shame we probably won't see them answered.

Looking back at what Tobias said earlier, I'm pretty sure that one scene in "Father Knows Beast" with the, *ahem*, less-than-clean implications was the work of a storyboarder or animator trying to see what they could get away with. I had to re-watch the episode to catch the moment where the "indecent exposure" bit is implied, and it's pretty much just half a second of Twilight's eyes drifting to the exact place they'd have to for it to suggest nudity.

The dialogue just treats it as though Twilight is shocked to see Sludge in Spike's room, leading into the revelation that Spike had been sleeping outside all day, and I get the feeling that's the extent of what the script called for. It's in the subtle details of the animation that it starts to take in the creepy implications, and without noticing it the context of the scene almost completely changes.

Creepy Uncle doesn't usually stop at a simple "Look at my junk." And even if he did, that's already sexual misconduct.

And I disagree. It's a pretty alarming thing to see animated in a little girl's show. That scene has no business being here. It doesn't even add anything to the plot. It's just there for lulz, because someone thinks having Sludge expose himself to Twilight with an alarming grin is funny.

Sure, it might just be a toxic animator's doing. But MLP in general, not just Haber, ran my Benefit of Doubt well dry a long time ago when it comes to skeevy sexual conduct. These words should not even be said in a sane universe, but unfortunately they remain true: the sexual politics of this little girls' cartoon about pastel ponies are extremely problematic.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 7th 2018 at 7:57:08 AM

I think this is what passes for Parental Bonus these days...

Yeah, I don’t think anyone on the show ever set out to write about “sexual politics”. But I guess that’s the problem- that the final product is nonetheless subconsciously affected by some kind of toxic (frankly a word that has lost most meaning to me at this point, especially when you apply it directly to people whose humor you don’t care for) cultural thinking?

But again, maybe it’s just sour grapes that nothing like this occurs to me while watching. But really, I just want to watch the adventures of characters I happen to like; I don’t feel the need to note how everything is “coded” (another word that’s gotten worn out).

I really need to binge Tobias’s recaps to remind myself how we got to this point.

Edited by YamiVizziniX on Oct 7th 2018 at 11:10:23 AM

I don't really even necessarily disagree with Tobias' criticism of the scene. I'd disagree that it serves no purpose — it's there to establish that Sludge kicked Spike out of his own room — but I can definitely see how it came off as incredibly skeezy. I think it could have been reworked with a few minor changes to eliminate all of the creepy implications (get rid of the bathrobe, change Twilight's reaction slightly, etc.)

The problem I have is in seriously suggesting that one character intended to actually rape another. It's taken me a while to fully articulate in my mind why I felt this way initially, but I think it's because that's the sort of claim I usually hear from fans who are trying to inject their own edgy fantasies into the show.

I know Tobias well enough to know that's not his intention here at all, of course. But coming from anyone else I'd assume it would be projection, like with most Tyrantlestia or "Spike is abused" headcanons.

Edited by Zennistrad on Oct 7th 2018 at 11:39:46 AM

The main thing you'd need to do to fix the scene would just be to change Sludge's behavior. MLP's made this joke work in the past just fine; all he needed to do was get embarrassed and try to cover up, rather than giving her that "Yeah, you like what you see" grin.

That Sludge was a conscious actor in the "LOL indecent exposure" gag instead of an unwitting victim of happenstance is what makes it skeevy, compared to previous versions of this gag with Fluttershy and Rarity. That's not hard to fix.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 7th 2018 at 9:38:13 AM

Isn't Sludge supposed to be skeevy? And him being gross and indecent is a form of visual shorthand to let us know that?

Like, I got where you were coming from back during Grannies Gone Wild because Apple Sauce was treated as one of the good guys despite her hitting on the bellhop. It didn't bother me personally, but I got the argument. Here, Sludge is a shitty person, and is revealed as such. So wouldn't the people watching come away with an implicit lesson that people who act the way he does will be revealed as slimy manipulators and bad people?

To an extent, yes. But I'm gonna say that even villains probably shouldn't be coded as sexual predators/harrassers/assaulters/etc. in a Y-rated cartoon show.

Rape is a very complicated topic. It's not a conversation that Hasbro needs to be having with your five-year-old daughter, and it's especially not something that should enter an unrelated conversation they're having just for the sake of a cheap laugh. The reason it's so frustrating to have to point out that the sexual politics of this show are awful is because the show shouldn't really have sexual politics to call out in the first place.

My Little Pony is not Jessica Jones, nor should it aspire to be.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 7th 2018 at 9:56:56 AM

Me thinks there is no sexual politics beyond what you inject into the story.

Aside from the "indecent exposure" gag. There honestly really wasn't. Going to stay clear from this debate though because I can see where this will go.

Edited by AfroProduction96 on Oct 7th 2018 at 9:33:09 AM

For what it's worth, I didn't even notice that there was anything implied there. It seems like a blink and you'll miss it moment.

It's a scene that shows Sludge is a self-assured asshole. He thinks he's #1, so of course he's going to stand there proudly posing, thinking he's some kind of Adonis. Inability to see past one's arrogance and read the feelings of someone right in front of one is pretty clear shorthand for someone who needs to be taken down a notch.

All media involves gender and sex politics, even if not done consciously or explicitly. It is present in how characters interact with each other, as well as how the narrative treats those characters.

And there is definitely sex politics involved in the bathrobe scene, here, as well as earlier instances where a character gets accidentally "exposed" to someone else. Which is especially obvious on a show like this, because these characters don't usually even wear clothes. The show has to go out of its way to set such a situation up.

And when you can tell a clear difference between how a woman reacts to being exposed indecently, versus how a man reacts, then there is certainly sex politics involved. You can tell that the show is following patriarchal gender norms in those scenes: women react with shame, men react with macho confidence.

And that is another way this scene can be read: Sludge is simply being the confident male who does not mind being female-gazed, especially by a woman. I have no doubt that, had it been a male, Sludge would have covered up to avoid being seen as gay (which perfectly demonstrates why this scene IS of a sexual nature, by the way. When in doubt, flip one or both genders, and you see all sorts of gender biases emerging).

The REALLY toxic thing about this scene, by the way, is not Sludge's indifference to being exposed so much as the cultural expectation that he would be comfortable exposing himself to a woman. I suspect this is the reason why Sludge is not allowed to react with shame in this scene, because it would reflect negatively on his masculinity.

That's a pretty fair read.

For me, I guess what it boils down to is: I liked the joke when the punchline was "LOL she's embarrassed to be naked even though ponies are always naked anyway." With this, the punchline seems to be, "LOL Twilight had to see a penis and didn't want to." And that's too rapey to me to be funny.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 8th 2018 at 6:20:56 AM

I really hate typing this because I hate sounding like I'm preaching the narrative that gets pushed that people who think about this stuff are just overly offended SJ Ws who need to calm the hell down, but this is also reminding me of how heels in wrestling promotions are often criticized for saying racist things. Even though they're the BAD GUYS. The villains who are supposed to be despicable and you want to see them lose for acting like a piece of shit.

Sludge is a douchebag guy who's full of himself. He's supposed to be skeevy. He makes Twi uncomfortable? His whole function in the narrative is to make Twilight uncomfortable. Because he's the antagonist. In fact, he's teaching Spike bad, toxic things He's a bad parental figure, and the episode doesn't portray him as a good guy. From his design and name alone he's coded to be someone you aren't supposed to feel good about.

Him being ashamed at being seen nude would be weird. Because it would rob him of part of his power in the plot. Where everything goes his way and he makes Twi feel worse.

Edited by GNinja on Oct 8th 2018 at 12:43:59 PM

I would certainly not support the narrative that people who think critically about gender representation and gender politics are "overreacting SJ Ws", and we should certainly move away from that narrative.

Lets not be tempted to stop thinking critically just because some people use it as justification to be assholes.

There is such a thing as tonally-acceptable skeeviness. Sludge did a fine enough job presenting himself as a skeevy asshole in all of the scenes outside of that one. It is my position that at no point in a little girls' cartoon starring pastel ponies should a character be forced to see an unwanted penis.

It doesn't matter if the penis belongs to a villain or another protagonist. It's worse, certainly, if it belongs to a character we're meant to like. But it doesn't really change the fact that she shouldn't have been forced to see a penis she didn't want to see in the first place.

Sexual harassment is not a joke and should not be treated like one in a little girls' cartoon. In this scene, we are meant to laugh at Twilight for being flustered by Sludge exposing himself, and that is not okay. Making victims of harassment into subjects of ridicule is a part of rape culture. It normalizes the behavior and teaches children that harassment is funny.

And then we wind up living in a world where we need to have a #MeToo movement.

EDIT: Basically, what I'm trying to say is that this scene would be less problematic if it wasn't played for laughs. But it would never have been in the episode and not played for laughs, because its subject matter is completely unacceptable for MLP.

If it's unacceptable to be played straight, why is it acceptable to be played for lulz?

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 8th 2018 at 7:30:59 AM

Post of the Day #2298

I'd like to point this out though. Haber also wrote Uncommon Bond. In that episode, Starlight barges in on Sunburst while he's asleep. His reaction to the concept of being nude in front of Starlight is to act sheepish and embarassed, much like the presentation in the Rarity and Fluttershy gags.

He's a male character too, so it really does make me think that Sludge's gross lack of shame is supposed to be yet another sign that he's a dick, and as such his behaviour isn't to be lauded.

On the subject of things being played for laughs though. C Omedy is built on the transgression of social norms. Even something as banal as a pie to the face is a transgression of what is socially acceptable. Throw a pie in someone's face at dinner and you're an asshole, regardless of how many Pie face gags we've seen in fiction. A comedy of errors plot, with a gigantic web of lies that spirals out of control, ruins people's lives in real life, and it isn't fun at all. Smash someone's head with a giant hammer, and it doesn't matter how much slapstick you've seen, you're a psychopath.

Now, obviously, there are still jokes that are inappropriate for certain audiences, but I don't think this particular gag with Sludge is all that toxic because it's really not something I can see being widely emulated. Obviously, kids will emulate things they think are cool regardless of whether the story says it's bad, but I don't think Sludge even enters into that "cool" threshold because so much of the episode's coding is designed to make him repugnant.