Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
I don't think Palestinians in the West Bank have an abundance of job opportunities.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
The issue here is that it's not just a social distinction between Arabs and Jews — it's an administrative and legal one. From 2016 to 2018, Israel rejected over 98% of Palestinian requests for building permits in the West Bank. The West Bank is not just a shitty place for Arabs to try to find a job — Palestinians are systemically denied the ability to create opportunities for themselves.
I'm by and large agreeing with you. The differences are subtle between apartheid in south africa and the west bank, but ultimately the end result is essentially the same. And I was specifically talking about palestinians in the west bank (where are I think the comparison has the most teeth), but outside the west bank (and gaza) it doesn't have as much teeth. An Arab Israeli living outside the west bank can earn a ton of money, vote, hold assembly, hold office. As I said those Arabs are comparable to blacks in the united states.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
If the end result is essentially the same I'm not sure what worth there is to arguing that there is some "subtle difference". No one is claiming that the apartheid system in Israel is exactly the same as the one that used to be in South Africa, simply that it's close enough to be the same category of system.
I mean, we're on a website that classifies tropes. Oftentimes different yet similar tropes in two different stories will end up having the same end result, but I still like talking about the differences. And I don't think it's always wrong to document the differences between how things work. Is that inherently wrong somehow?
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
It can be when malicious actors try to use it as a game of whataboutism and to district from the fact that it's happening at all.
Oh really when?
I don't know if this is you accusing me of concern trolling (or just stating that in general), so I'll be unequivocal about where I stand: I'm a two-stater (my parents would argue this makes me a Zionist; I would argue that point, mostly cause I think Herzl was wrong), but I think Bibi is a terrible person, and I think the west bank/gaza are cancers on democracy. My position on Israel is closer to something like Bernie's or I guess technically J-street's. Fuck AIPAC is also a secondary opinion I have. If you're not accusing me of that, I apologize.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
A procrastination in of itself
I don’t think that was aimed at you, I think it was passive aggression for other people in the thread.
Which we should probably try and limit, you know, in the interest of actually having a discussion.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
Blowout soon fellow Stalker
Oh yeah no, that wasn't meant for you at all or even really anyone in this thread.
It's just a general statement of how people can try and twist good things and needed analysis to steer attention away from the actual problem.
Oh really when?
That's fair I guess, it's just given that I'm a math PHD student I like looking at the nitty gritty details. The why and how are often important to me, I can understand how that can be used for nefarious purposes.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
Regardless, Israel is an apartheid system. Pointing out minute differences does not meaningfully make that any less true.
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
I mean I agree, I've called it an "apartheid-like system" for years. So... yeah.
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid
I’m pretty sure even a large number of Israelis think it’s one at this point.
The Irish Times reports that EU aid sent to the Palestinian village of Khirbet Humsah in the West Bank has been destroyed by Israeli military forces, the third demolition of the village since November.
Edited by RedSavant on Feb 21st 2021 at 5:02:34 AM
It's been fun.
Clearly, the Palestinians should just be more reasonable and peaceful, that would solve everything /s
Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 21st 2021 at 7:15:31 AM
"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn
Israelis have apparently forgotten that elections are supposed to have winners
Anyway, snark aside, the current tallies point to this breakdown:
- Likud: 30
- Yesh Atid: 17
- Shas: 9
- United Torah Judaism: 7
- Blue and White: 8 (how the mighty have fallen)
- Labor: 7
- Yamina: 7
- Yisrael Beiteinu: 7
- Joint List: 6
- New Hope: 6
- Religious Zionism: 6
- Meretz: 5
- Raam: 5
This leaves Netanyahu's bloc with 59 seats, short of the required 61 for a majority, so looks like the saga continues. Forever.
Edited by somerandomdude on Mar 24th 2021 at 6:51:00 PM
ok boomer
Oh, bother.
I wish I could say I was surprised by this...but I'm not.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Oh, bother.
It at least feels like an improvement over Netanyahu actually having the majority.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Let's just hope Abbas doesn't sign on with Likud and prove that right-wing unity is more important than, y'know, actually defending his people.
The year is 2195. There are 120 parties in the Israeli Knesset, each represented by a single MK. Palestinians have been forced underground and have evolved into mole people. The preserved head of Benjamin Netanyahu, still Prime Minister, demands Mole-moud Abbas recognize Israel's divine right to all underground aquifers.
ok boomer
I hate to be off-topic but I get that mole people is a Time Machine reference but what about the Netanyahu head? Is that also a Time Machine reference or something else?
Sounds like Futurama, where Earth is led by Nixon's head in a jar.
It wasn't supposed to be super sophisticated or anything. Just a bit of humor poking fun at the situation. But yes, Netanyahu's preserved head was supposed to be a Futurama reference.
I'm kinda proud of "Mole-moud Abbas" though.
ok boomer
I definitely feel the comparison is warranted, but as far as I can tell it's not quite the exact same. Arabs living in the west bank are objectively speaking second class citizens, but blacks under apartheid were equivalent to a serf class or as I like to call them "slaves of the state." They not only made up south Africa's work force, they also had large restrictions on jobs. Like in theory an Arab living in the west bank could earn a lot of money, but in practice they're not going to be able to due to restrictions on movement. Arabs living in Israel outside the West Bank and Gaza are comparable to blacks in the united states. There situation isn't rosy and it's definitely not improving but I don't think they're living under apartheid.
Still at this point I also acknowledge that the Arab population might be big enough in the West Bank and Gaza that it might not matter percentage-wise that Arab Israelis have more rights than the Arabs in the West Bank and Gaza, cause most of the population is composed of those in the West Bank and Gaza.
Edited by jjjj2 on Feb 9th 2021 at 3:41:54 PM
You can only write so much in your forum signature. It's not fair that I want to write a piece of writing yet it will cut me off in the mid