Israel and Palestine

You are aware that LBGT people in Gaza have to fear for their lifes right?

Yes, and as long as the Israeli government asserts control over Gaza it carries a level of responsibility for that.

The same way the US held partial responsibility for what happened to the Iraqi people when the US occupied Iraq, even when actions against the Iraqi people weren’t done directly by the US or its allies.

Gaza is under control of Hamas, not Israel, who were in fact voted in after Israel left Gaza. So no, Israel is not responsible for this.

Israel does not recognise the existence of a Palestinian government/nation, it asserts control over Gaza’s airspace and ports, controlling the flow of goods in and out.

South Africa tried the same thing with the Bantustans and the US did it with tribal reservations. In the end there needs to be a nation state responsible for the people and territory of Gaza, the Israeli government can either accept that it’s them or it can recognise a nation state that is responsible.

Here’s the Wikipedia quote on Gaza.

Edited by Silasw on Jan 22nd 2021 at 5:19:33 PM

Indeed they do, Israeli bombs are quite terrifying.

Oh wait, were you thinking that my contempt for Israel indicates support for Hamas' policies? Ha, no.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Jan 22nd 2021 at 9:41:54 AM

That doesn't mean they are responsible for Hamas' actions towards their own population though.

Lol. We're having this discussion again.

Look: I understand the suspicion towards people who single out Israel. Truly, I do. I think that a lot of antisemites try to mask their ideology by singling out Israel.

But this is the Israel and Palestine thread. Discussion of whether Israel is a better or worse ally for the US than its neighbours is a valid conversation. Engaging in blatant whataboutism and complaining about how Arab countries in general are homophobic is not appropriate for this forum.

Additionally, some of the facts being thrown around here are just blatantly false or taken out of context. Do you know why male homosexuality is illegal in Gaza? It's because the British Mandate Criminal Code from 1936 is still in effect. I fail to see how blaming people who are constantly under attack for failing to remove all legal relics of colonialism is fair or productive.

(Not to mention that Israel frequently blackmails gay Palestinians. So much for LGBT rights.)

Edited by indigoJay on Jan 22nd 2021 at 2:13:57 PM

.... You are seriously blaming the British for today's prosecution of homosexuals in Gaza?

....

Can I ask how this conversation went from "the US shouldn't uncritically enable the Israeli government" to "but Hamas, though"?

X4 Hamas will always be the primary responsible party for the crimes it commits, but that doesn’t mean that other parties who have a responsibility as the governing power don’t also have to take a share of responsibility.

The entire conflict is in large part the fault of the 1948 British government, remember the British government refused to let the UN implement the UN partition plan.

And yes on top of that Britain did a ton to built and entrench homophobia in its colonies, that homophobia remains both culturally and legally to this day.

The sentiment that Hamas’ brutal and horrific nature makes the Israeli government above reproach in a long-running one.

Edited by Silasw on Jan 22nd 2021 at 7:30:15 PM

Absolutely no one said that. I was talking about how they make the lives of Palestinian worse, which includes the LGBT ones. Therefore, talking about how they're "good on LGBT rights" requires one to ignore all the LGBT people they hurt.

Maybe we can come together by saying that Israel should hold itself to a way higher standart than just claiming that they are better than something as irredeemably evil as Hamas.

Yes, I certainly agree with that.

Just a thing here: my point was moving the embassy of jerusalem again would get nothing except piss off Israel who like or not, are one of biggest ally in the region, sure US is powerfull enough but his soft power reach there isnt great and havent being in nearly decades, and I was against spartan sugestion it should sever tie or that it would improve peace in the middle east by standing against zionism because zionism is a) one part of many problem of the middle east, and b) is also tie to a lot of anti semitism that would cheer for this, specially because is also interlock in how many politics in the middle east move.

THAT being said I do agree US should hold more presure on israel and saudi arabia since both have becoming toxic, specially with israel who is becoming more and more conservative and entrech in their own ways which is in fact dimising much of their appeal as democratic state, the fact they are oficialzing their status with saudi arabia who have promove radical islam while shitting on iran kinda said all.

Personally I view the whole Jerusalem thing as kind of a red herring. In every scenario for a final agreement - two states w/ split Jerusalem, two states w/ shared Jerusalem, one unitary secular state, federal binational state, confederation, what have you - Jerusalem is the seat of government for either the singular entity or both of them. It was bad optics for Trump to do it at the time, but I agree with in that reversing the decision will only create friction and won't actually advance the Palestinian cause any.

The problem is that keeping the embassy there is a clear statement that the US supports Israeli territorial claims at the expense of the Palestinian people. It erodes what little credibility there is left to the idea that US can be a neutral third-party in the conflict who cares for everyone.

Sure but we’re not at a two-state solution yet, the current Israeli government is opposed to one. Keeping the embassy in Jerusalem when there’s a serious chance of the outcome eventually being “single Israeli state, all Palestinians either dead or expelled” is bad, especially when the US continues to support movement away from a two-state solution.

Putting the embassy in Jerusalem could be a move towards peace if the US also recognised Palestine and put the Palestinian embassy in Jerusalem, but that’s not going to happen.

Since you mention it, what's stopping the Biden administration from recognizing Palestinian statehood?

Nothing but it’s own internal politics.

Now that could be a justifiable reason, even if Biden was willing to take such a step the domestic backlash he’d face for it could be sizeable.

And why would there be a domestic backlash? Is the idea of Palestine as a sovereign state somehow toxic to US-Americans by and large?

Edited by MarqFJA on Jan 23rd 2021 at 3:03:39 PM

Yes. There will be a huge backlash against Biden "supporting terrorists against our Jewish allies" if he were to recognise Palestine as a state.

It’s certainly toxic to the US political classes, it’s uncertain if that’s an accurate reflection of voters.

It’s less about hatred of Palestinians (though there’s plenty of that due to them being largely Muslim) and more a feeling that the US should support Israel no matter what. A proposed law making it illegal to boycott Israel already has bipartisan support in a Congress.

I remember that law, it was proposed by Dan Crenshaw, wasn't it?

That guy is one of the worst. One of the few Neocons who supported Trump.

Must be a different law, the Israel Anti-Boycott Act was proposed by Senators Ben Cardin (D-Maryland) and Rob Portman (R-Ohio), with a total of 58 cosponsors in the Senate, and 292 cosponsors in the House (216 Republicans, 76 Democrats).

It’s a pretty bi-partisan belief.

The ICC has ruled it has jurisdiction over the Palestinian territories and can now investigate both Israel and Palestinian organizations for any alleged war crimes. Not that any Israeboo will tell you this, but this also means Hamas (among others) is open to be investigated, and probably will be.

Bibi predictably slammed it as "pure antisemitism."

If they ever locked up all of Hamas Bibi would loosing his justification for his hatred of Palestinians, he can’t allow that.