Right. Given the high quality of discussion on OTC about other issues, it would be nice to have some Troper input on this thorniest of Middle Eastern issues. Tropers wanting a brief overview of Israel should check out its Useful Notes page, or Israel
and Palestine's country profiles on the BBC.
At the outset, however, I want to make something very clear: This thread will be about sharing and discussing news. Discussions about whether the existence of Israel is justified would be off-topic, as would any extended argument or analysis about the countries' history.
So, let's start off:
At the moment, the two countries, prodded by the United States, are currently attempting to negotiate peace. A previous round of talks collapsed in 2010 after Israel refused to order a halt to settlement building on Palestinian land. US mediators will be present.
The aim of the talks is to end the conflict based on the "two state solution" - where independent Palestinian and Israeli states exist alongside each other. Both sides have expressed cynicism, although the US government has said it is "cautiously optimistic".
Key issues of the talks:
- Jerusalem: The city is holy to both Islam and Judaism. Both Palestine and Israel claim it as their capital. Israel has de facto control over most of it, a situation its Prime Minister has said will persist for "eternity". Some campaigners hope it can become an international city under UN or joint Israeli/Palestinian administration.
- Borders and settlements: The Palestinian Authority claims that the land conquered by Israel in the Six Day War of 1967 (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) is illegally occupied, and must be vacated by Israel in the event of a future Palestinian state. However, there are over 500,000 Israeli citizens living in settlements across the "Green line". Israel claims that a future Palestinian government would oppress or ethnically cleanse them, whilst many settlers claim that the land is rightfully theirs, as they have an ethno-religious link to it as part of the ancestral homeland of the Jewish people.
- Palestinian refugees: In 1948, around 700,000 Palestinian Arabs left the territory of the new Israeli state. The reasons why are still debated - preferably elsewhere. The Palestinian negotiators wish for them and their descendants to have a right of return to Israel. The Israeli government considers only those who were actually forced away all those years ago to have a legitimate claim (if that). The US government considers them all refugees, to Republican fury.
So you can see why its never been fixed. The religious dimension in particular has a lot of people vexed - asking Muslims or Jews to abandon Jerusalem has been likened to asking Catholics to skip communion.
Still, there's hope. Somewhere. The latest developments in the region:
- Israel has released 26 imprisoned Palestinian prisoners convicted of attacks on Israeli civilians and agreed to release another 78 in the future.
- Israel has OK'ed development of 900 new homes east of the "Green Line" in a controversial move ahead of the talks.
- Hamas is to execute publicly two prisoners in Gaza
- The new Palestinian government will not reunite the feuding Gazan and Transjordanian (West Bank) elements of Hamas and Fatah.
edited 15th Aug '13 2:10:49 PM by Achaemenid
We talking about Amin al-Husseini?
Oh right. That time the leader of Israel engaged in Hitler apologia and we all realised that we were living in an Onion article/ Black Mirror episode.
Tell Me, Have You Seen the Yellow Sign?
Centre-left opposition splinters ahead of Israeli election
The announcement means the end of their Zionist Union alliance, which secured the second most seats in the last general election in 2015, but has since slipped in opinion polls.
The Zionist Union included Gabbay's Labour party and Livni's Hatnuah. It won 24 out of 120 seats in 2015, behind Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's right-wing Likud, which won 30.
Gabbay’s partnership with Livni, which he inherited from previous Labour leader Isaac Herzog, had been uneasy since he took over the party’s helm in 2017.
"I still believe in partnership, in connections, in uniting a large camp committed to change, but successful connections necessitate friendship, upholding agreements and commitment to a course," Gabbay told a meeting of Zionist Union parliament members.
"That didn't happen in this partnership," he said, adding that he believed voters agreed.
Livni approached the podium immediately afterwards and said tersely she would take time to reflect on Gabbay's announcement before responding.
At a separate press conference later, the former foreign minister admitted Gabbay's announcement had taken her by surprise, rejected insinuations she lacked loyalty and said the split was ultimately for the best.
"Gabbay was right about one thing today — it was never a real partnership between us, because he never wanted a partnership," she said. "The way he ended it today is proof."
Pre-election realignments
Gabbay's decision is the latest realignment ahead of the election and more are expected.
On Saturday, two right-wing ministers, Naftali Bennett and Ayelet Shaked, announced they were splitting from their Jewish Home party to form a new grouping that they hope will attract a mixture of secular and religious voters.
Benny Gantz, a popular former armed forces chief of staff, has also signalled his intention to run by forming a new centrist party.
Netanyahu currently leads what is seen as the most right-wing government in Israel's history and says he would like to have a similar coalition after elections.
Opinion polls predict his Likud party will take between 27 and 31 seats, despite corruption allegations against its leader, while Zionist Union was credited with just eight to nine seats.
Israel’s attorney general is expected to announce his decision on whether to charge Netanyahu in the coming months. The premier would not be required to step down if indicted.
(FRANCE 24 with AFP)
God dammit. We ARE Struggling Together is a bitch.
Servant of the Omnissiah
Well, looks like Bibi is going to win yet another term, with the Centre-Left imploding on itself.
Some things don't change.
I hold the secrets of the machine.
![[up]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/smiles/arrow_up.png "[up]"){kind=icon}
In fact, if memory serve me well he try to pull that sting in germany only to be told by Merkel that no, it was the germany the responsable for the holocaust...
So a jew got lecture by a german about the holocaust...and it was prime minister....truly a onion article in real life.
So the oposition drop their pants again....truly some things never change.
This is almost exactly what happened in Japan. The sole opposition party has imploded, and Abe is set to become the longest serving prime minister in the country’s history. Also, fuck bibi. I hope he’s jailed.
It is not just the opposition that is fractured. "Jewish home", one of the coalitin parties, has splintered after its leaders formed a new party because they wanted to run on a more religiously moderated platform.
Malaysia made the news in Israel after relected PM Mahatir made it clear that Israeli athletes can't be in the country for prelims for the Tokyo 2020 Olympics.
No exceptions.
Oh, bother.
Unfortunately it's paywalled.
Disgusted, but not surprised
Anyway, Israel lauded the move to ban Malaysia from hosting the Paralympic prelims because of the Israeli athlete ban.
When North Korea and Russia can do awful shit and still be on the Olympic tryouts, but Israel can’t, that’s not a concern for human rights, it’s an antisemitic double standard. And Israel responding by banning them is petty as shit.
It's petty, but can't get too worked up about it. I mean it's just banning a country from hosting a prelims.
As an Indonesian, it's really unsettling to see how radical fundamentalism affects Malaysia. And I thought the fundamentalists in my place are already bad. It's like seeing a sneak peek of what happen if we also go off the deep end. And it isn't like the chance we're going to go that way is small.
I'm not as witty as I think I am. It's a scientifically-proven fact.
A procrastination in of itself
North Korea and Russia don’t hold democratic elections, Israel does (for the Israeli citizens), it’s the same logic that lead to Aparthied facing bans and sanctions, the Israeli people voted for this oppression of human rights, the Russian and North Korean people didn’t.
by that logic, so did the Americans, and they should be banned for police brutality and the treatment of natives. Just because some voted for this bullshit doesn’t mean all of them did, and banning the whole country is basically telling those fighting for change to go fuck themselves.
A procrastination in of itself
You’re seriously underestimating what’s being done to the Palestinians (and was done to black people in South Africa) if you think current US policy towards native Americans is a fair comparison.
Now the US under say Jackson (or any president until at least the end of slavery), yeah that’s be a pretty fare case for an Olympic ban in the modern era, what about it?
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
No, I’m not. And you’re endorsing the idea that all voters in Israel feel the same way, and that by being Israeli any athletes lose all privileges of being in the olympics. Your target should be the Israeli government, not the individual citizens.
A procrastination in of itself
The citizens as a collective have decided to vote for the government and its policy of ethnic cleansing, it’s entirely fair for them to collectively loose their right have national sporting heroes.
If individual athletes want to compete there is a fair argument that even under a boycott they should be allowed to compete under a neutral flag as independents. I’m curious as to if that was allowed for South Africans under Aparthied.
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
For god’s sake, that’s like assuming every American loves trump. Tossing out all the athletes just because some of them may have voted for bibi. And the “why don’t they go independent?” Line is horseshit. Russia still has elections, even if they’re rigged. Should Russians be banned for supporting Putin?
A procrastination in of itself
Again you’re seriously low balling your comparisons, Trump is doing many horrific things but he’s yet to start a campaign of ethnic cleansing, there’s a difference between being a horrible and illegitimate leader and engaging in a planned campaign to whipe an entire ethnic group from your country (which for anyone curious means that yes I do think the Arab countries who forcefully expelled their Jewish population should have been forced out for their actions if they had been democracies).
Likewise with Putin, he’s both not democratically elected (and Russian elections are rigged well beyond the ballot stuffing) and isn’t engaged in a campaign of ethnic cleansing (though his chosen leader for Chechnya is engaged in an orientation based campaign of mass murder).
It’s not about if a leader is popular, it’s about the point being made that when you elect someone who is going to engage in ethnic cleansing you loose something, there is a price to be paid for that, I’d much rather a sports boycott than a military intervention.
And again I’m not even talking about the athletes, I’m talking about the country, the athletes can compete under a neutral flag, but the country as represented by its government is something it’s entierly legitimate to want banned.
Edited by Silasw on Jan 29th 2019 at 1:11:37 PM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
He hasn’t started a campaign of ethnic cleansing? What the hell do you think the Muslim ban and border wall are about?
A procrastination in of itself
The first is about him being a racist islamaphobia prick who wants to make Muslims stay away from the US and the second is about him being a racist prick who wants a monument to his penis and to make Mexicans (plus Central and South Americans) stay away from the US.
Neither is a campaign of ethnic cleansing, he’s not yet trying to make people die on mass because he doesn’t like their ethnicity and wants to wipe it from the country so that he can seize their land for the ‘chosen people’.
Edited by Silasw on Jan 29th 2019 at 1:18:19 PM
“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran
He wants Mexican people to die. Period. You’re missing the point-which is that you’re condemning all athletes under the assumption they approve of their country’s actions, and that Israeli (and ONLY Israeli) athletes must publicly condemn their country in order to participate. Do you ask that of Myanmar, who has been going through an ongoing genocide? They’re a democracy. What about India, who also pushes out muslims from their country, forcing them into Pakistan? They’re a democracy, too.
Dude what. Did Palestine as the Israelis understand it even exist back then. Not to mention it reeks of the “(Jews) rule the world” conspiracy theory.
Edited by fruitpork on Dec 29th 2018 at 5:31:15 AM