The General Religion, Mythology, and Theology Thread

Except it's already copyrighted. It'd be like using an image of Jesus that is almost identical to a copyrighted painting of Jesus.

Well the courts will decide.

In a new wrinkle, Pence's Messianic Rabbi was actually defrocked by the Messianic movement. So he's a fake fake rabbi. It's fake rabbi-ception.

Fifteen years ago at that. Where Pence and Epstein dug this guy up, I can't imagine. The GOP really has a knack for attracting scumbags.

Edited by M84 on Oct 30th 2018 at 11:06:42 PM

Whether or not you consider them Jews or Christians, I suppose it means that the sects members knew that this was a tasteless shitty thing to do and refused to be a part of it.

So they hired a con man.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 30th 2018 at 8:10:28 AM

It is possible he was the one to approach them, rather than vice-versa. And then they either completely failed to do any background checking or decided that a disgraced member of a fringe movement was fine with them

Edited by Hylarn on Oct 30th 2018 at 8:14:34 AM

I think that sort of thing requires you to believe there's any slack you should cut Pence or his people.

@Charles-

Yeah, I was being kind of deliberately flippant. I want to acknowledge that I don't think that every Messianic Jew is bad intentioned and referring to the religion itself as a con is unfair, even though elements of its theodicy don't accurately reflect Judaism.

But yes, all theological issues aside, Pence predictably found a really bad dude.

It's also surprising to me that Epstein is a Reform Jew, because Reform Jews are almost invariably religiously liberal. Quite odd that she would be associating with Mike Pence and I can't imagine she's a very popular person at her synagogue.

Edited by Hodor2 on Oct 30th 2018 at 10:18:34 AM

I can't imagine this latest move will impress the rest of the synagogue either.

Oh wow. got from a twitter link a post by "Rabbi" Loren Jacobs which shed some light on why he got kicked out of the Messianic movement. Link here. Basically, as illustrated by the quotes he considers heretical, everyone else was really big on being ecumenical and considered Christians and non-Messianic Jews as having equally valid belief systems.

However, Jacobs took the view that non-Messianic Jews will burn in Hell. Catholics too. it's kind of weirdly refreshing to see Jack Chick-style anti-Catholicism, which is usually (and thankfully) a Forgotten Trope.

So yeah, Pence invited a guy who embodies the worst stereotypes of his movement and who believed that all of the victims of the massacre were Hellbound.

However, I can fully understand why this was the individual selected by Pence.

Edited by Hodor2 on Oct 30th 2018 at 11:13:27 AM

Sadly, it is not remotely forgotten and is very much how a lot of evangelical christians believe. "Everyone goes to hell but this branch of protestant Christianity."

[sighs]

They especially hate Catholics.

And yes, this is how I believe Pence believes.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 30th 2018 at 9:20:56 AM

Stupid Calvinism, always ruining everything!

(No seriously, the idea that only certain people are destined for Salvation is very much a Calvinist one)

Edited by megaeliz on Oct 30th 2018 at 12:42:06 PM

There's a reason Bill Watterson named the bratty misanthropic Never My Fault main character for his comic strip after John Calvin.

Edited by M84 on Oct 31st 2018 at 12:51:47 AM

As a former Presbyterian, the issue is more salvation by faith alone.

Calvin said nothing could change your fate, so you should just be good because it indicated what God had chosen.

Faith savers state that if you believe in Jesus IN THIS SPECIFIC WAY you will be saved while all others are damned. Also, you are saved by your faith in Jesus and not good works—which don't matter since all humans are innately evil.

A cult...err sorry, church tried to recruit me in community college with this line.

Notably, while they state you should be good in these branches you don't HAVE to be and that anyone outside them is damned including Catholics, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and babies.

The Left Behind series was written by this group of Christians.

Edited by CharlesPhipps on Oct 30th 2018 at 9:57:38 AM

@ "True" Jews, Christians etc.

I'd be curious to hear how much the "average believer on the street" in different parts of the world actually knows or cares about all the - sometimes pretty minor and oddly specific, imo - theological differences between the different branches and denominations of their faith.

I guess that Sweden might be a bit of an outlier, but most of the local self-identifying Christians I've talked to (including a couple priests) only rarely seem to have more than a very vague idea of what the Trinity is and whether or not they "should" believe in it, for example.

I wouldn't call "believing Jesus is the Messiah" a minor difference. It's a pretty big deal.

Edited by M84 on Oct 31st 2018 at 10:24:10 PM

Yeah, that's pretty much a case of "not even getting the basics right".

We've actually had this debate in my family a while back. My aunt claimed that to be a Christian, you had to actively try to evangelize and bring religion into other people's lives because that's what's in the bible.

I'm no Christian, but that seemed overly restrictive and would cut off about seventy per cent of self-proclaimed believers. And I mean, none of the religious people in my age group would dare to proselytize like that, plus they mix in ghosts/energies on top.

Well, yeah. I'm thinking of somewhat smaller things.

Like that, pretty much.

Edited by Corvidae on Oct 31st 2018 at 4:26:12 PM

This whole discussion was started because the topic of Messianic Judaism was brought up. If you meant smaller stuff, clarify that.

Edited by M84 on Oct 31st 2018 at 11:27:43 PM

Alright. Things like the exact nature of the relationship between Jesus and God, details about the afterlife and the specific criteria for who might get a good or bad one, which prophets, saints etc. you should care about (if any), the proper way to perform certain rituals, which of the many rules and commandments are the most important, how literally one should interpret certain stories, and so on.

As a Christian the exact nature of the Trinity has always struck me as slightly trivial. That might because I have my own view on the topic though and I don't find the concept nearly as much of a Mind Screw as its usually portrayed.

Having said that, it is actually Serious Business...and for a reason, too, in fact. A church probably needs a clear opinion on the topic.

Several sects formed during the enlightenment rejected the Trinity and even the divinity of Christ entirely, as part of a broader movement to apply the principals of logic and reason to societal institutions as a whole.

Edited by megaeliz on Oct 31st 2018 at 12:16:59 PM

I did find it a mind screw when they told me in religion class what the mainstream view on the trinity was. I mentioned it before, but it makes no sense to me how God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are just one. Was Jesus pleading to himself to forgive the sinners?

All of them are part of the same being, yet have separate functions.