Male Roles Vs. Female Roles in Fiction: Discussion/Analysis/Troperwank

*4 Pretty we are not going to come to an agreement so I will agree to disagree on the matter.

*5 I suppose that depends on the personality and characteristics of a female character. Chances are probably not going to work no matter how well or unwell it is done.

Because chances are people will make plenty of assumptions on why the design is that way based on their own personal opinions on matters.

Urien comes to mind in regards to male characters since he burns his suit off before starting the fight.

That is just the vibe I got from her to be honest so I can't really explain it well without it just being my opinion. Her eye really just make it work in a way that the outfit doesn't bother me one way or the other.

Personally, I think Shin Megami Tensei does it pretty well (though a lot of the characters in that series are actual gods and not just "god-like"). It helps that some designs are references to actual depictions of said gods; for example, Diana has breasts all over her body, which is a reference to the Ephesian Artemis.

Though it might be a bit of a stretch to call them "characters," since they're more like Mons.

Edited by dragonfire5000 on Nov 5th 2018 at 11:36:37 AM

... how does Kefka fit in to that?

I'd guess he would be better male example than Gill yeah considering his final form

x4 I guess my question would then be what you’re even gaining from that design?

You’ve admitted the defining traits are the eyes and the outfit makes no difference, so why is such a hypersexualized outfit necessary? It obviously makes people uncomfortable, or wonder about the motivations of the designers, and if it was different your impression of the character would be unchanged.

Do I need to particularly gain something from a design though?

People will have different opinions on it so it is not like everyone has to benefit from it. Especially since a game should have a character for everyone.

While I'm neutral about her attire I'm sure other people like it for non perverted reasons just as people don't like it at all.

Every design choice is made intentionally. The designers chose what they did for a specific reason, whether it be to try and market their game through a “sex sells” approach or because they personally liked it.

And yes, it is worth looking at choices like that critically. They reflect the larger attitudes of the designers, and reveal who the target audience is, on top of the broader issues with hypersexualization of women in media as a whole. What you’re basically saying is “some people might like it so we shouldn’t question it”, which seems off base.

Oh, you can question it all you want, but at some point it just gets into Captain Obvious territory.

"This character design is like 80% pure Fetish Fuel!"

"Thanks for noticing."

That not really what I said at all. Not even sure how you came to that conclusion when I never even said if something should be questioned or not.

Edited by Darthwyn on Nov 5th 2018 at 3:31:39 PM

I suppose you could market your game from the get go as an explicitly sexual work, but stuff like this tends to creep in everywhere. When it represents a tonal departure from the game you have to wonder how the choice to put it in was made.

That was the implication. It’s almost like saying that you don’t personally see any issue with using an offensive term, and some people like it, so it’s no big deal, everyone has different opinions.

Edited by archonspeaks on Nov 5th 2018 at 12:39:05 PM

That example is pretty unfortunate I agree, still what I do like about Nier Automata is that Yoko Taro was refreshingly frank as to why the female characters look like supermodels. He just said something along the lines of "I like pretty women", avoiding any bullshit like "they breathe through their skin" (ugh).

And honestly, if a person wants to have a game where the characters are very attractive I really don't think it's inherently problematic. Fiction, after all, doesn't have to be realistic, and that includes physical appearance.

That's fair, if the sexual content clashes with the tone then purely from a stylistic perspective it's bad.

Like how the anime Highschool of The Dead couldn't make up its mind whether or not it was a dark zombie apocalypse story or soft core porn. The tonal dissonance was annoying and out of place.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 5th 2018 at 3:41:00 PM

I'm just going to agree to disagree because nothing good will come from this line of discussion at this juncture.

The manga or the anime because the manga seemed more dark with moments of levity in between during the less tense moments. Haven't read it in years so I could have forgotten a few things.

Edited by Darthwyn on Nov 5th 2018 at 3:44:18 PM

Well, I don't disagree. I've been trying to argue that (properly presented, marketed, labeled, etc.) sexualized character designs don't need to be inherently sexist or offensive just by existing. Whether or not they suit the story is a different (and pretty subjective, imo) question altogether.

As you pointed out there’s nothing really wrong with works being sexual, the issues just start to crop up when it becomes pandering or is unnecessarily sexual or is handled immaturely. Think Quiet from MGS, or anime scenes where characters have a serious conversation from an upskirt view.

I’ll leave the conversation with this: if something makes people uncomfortable or is out of place and you lose nothing by changing it, why not change it?

Edited by archonspeaks on Nov 5th 2018 at 12:51:53 PM

Agreed.

Presumably, because other people enjoy it, or because you can't please everyone and if you try then you're liable to please no-one.

Not saying that there isn't any reason to downplay sexualization if enough people complain or give good enough arguments but "people dislike this element" is not necessarily a strong enough reason to change something.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 5th 2018 at 3:53:43 PM

I believe you said it better than I would have been able to do so. Because yes it is you said it is not possible to make everyone happy.

A bit late since I don't currently have a PC, and am actualy still without one, but like.... I just want to say at least for me fanservicy outfits and the like are not the issue, some of them can be quite nice, and it is okay to have a bit of fun with designs... and hell I like it when the charecter I am playing is cute.

The issue is that every fuckign design is fanservicy, the practical female armor designs are the exception, not the rule....

Them existing is not the issue, them smothering out every other design type IS.

Of course, the opposite is also true. People liking something isn’t always a good enough reason to keep it.

In this case, I think the argument for changing it is much stronger.

Edited by archonspeaks on Nov 5th 2018 at 1:01:56 AM

Certainly, I realize it wasn't clear but my intent was less to defend it morally as much as explain why someone may not want to change it.

This is exactly my position, well said.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Nov 5th 2018 at 4:06:34 AM

Does it really bother you so much that other people watch stuff you don't like?

And before you say it, yes, having content that the creators should know might make people uncomfortable creep into the stuff you're watching without warning is a problem.

Edited by Corvidae on Nov 5th 2018 at 10:08:56 AM

Broad oversexualization of female characters in media is a known and fairly serious issue. I think it’s a little dismissive to describe criticisms of it as being bothered by something I don’t like.

Seconded, when you have existing trends where males view females as less than human or otherwise inferior then fictional works that reinforce those impulses are not good and should be criticized.

It's rather egregious to label it as being bothered by something that you don't like.

There is also the fact devlopers tend to be focused on the people they know will buy it rather than those that don't intend to do so to begin with. Something would only really change if profits were at risk of taking a hit.

Example would be Dead or Alive Extreme 3 not coming to the US.

That kind of is more the fault of people not being able to separate reality from fiction. It should be obvious that you can't treat people like items or side characters in a game. Real people are living breathing people and fictional characters are not real.

Edited by Darthwyn on Nov 5th 2018 at 4:19:43 AM

Doesn't really matter.

Consequences are consequences and if some people internalize ugly messages about women from some oversexualized work then that's a fair source of criticism. Nothing exists in a vacuum and should not be judged as such.

Note that I'm not saying we should necessarily ban them, that would be addressing the symptom instead of the disease. We should address the disease through education and other forms of socialization but ignoring the symptom is foolish too, that's where criticism comes in.

That I can agree with, it just generally feels like people seem to always want to scapegoat media for everything rather than take some responsibility for their own shortcomings and focus on one issue rather than the problem as a whole.

Maybe that is just me, but that is the feeling I tend to get a lot regarding the matter.

Edited by Darthwyn on Nov 5th 2018 at 4:35:25 AM