Sexism and Men's Issues

The Womens' Issues thread is here for what it's worth.

They might of just misplaced it.

Yeah it’d say that Anita and the hatred/abuse she has received are best discussed over there or in the general sexism thread.

The confusion is understandable, the title includes sexism which is pretty much a woman's problem. I think titling the thread "Men's Issues" would make more sense.

I think some confusion over the purpose of this thread stems from the fact that one is labelled "Sexism and Men's Issues" and the other is labelled solely "Women's Issues." So when it's not visible on the first page people take this thread for an all-purpose one. There's the pinned notice, but it's possible people are just skimming over the block of text; maybe the mods could throw a link to the Women's Issues thread there?

Edited by Pseudopartition on Feb 15th 2020 at 3:51:42 AM

No, sexism is not "a women's problem". That's the whole point. Sexism harms men as well, albeit in different ways than women. The pinned post gives a bunch of examples.

Let's see:

1. The male-only draft is not sexism, not against men, it's the product of men being seen as superior to women. Apartheid South Africa only permitted whites to serve in the military, would we call that "racism hurting white people"?

2. Circumcision has nothing to do with sexism of any type, it's just a religious/psuedo-medical practice that we tolerate because we give parents a great control of their children's bodies.

3. Ignoring men's pain and sickness could be argued to be related to sexism yes. But not against men, no one supports it because they devalue men.

4. Male sexual abuse being trivialized is connected to sexism, against women. "Men are always eager" has nothing to do with devaluing or discriminating against Men.

5. Family law is not a male issue at all, much less sexist.

6. How can one argue that maleness and danger have no connection when men overwhelmingly commit the majority of violent crime? Clearly there's some social force that is priming men to commit violence.

If we aren't going to have sexism in the title of the Women's Issues thread then we absolutely should not have sexism in this thread's title.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 15th 2020 at 3:39:01 AM

Best said, a lot of issues that men face aren't products of sexism, but rather toxic masculinity telling men they have to act a certain way, bury their emotions or express them in destructive or otherwise 'acceptable' manly ways, and that they can't be victims of sexual assault or abuse because it's "emasculating" and makes them "lesser men."

EDIT: A rename of this thread "Toxic Masculinity and Men's Issues" would probably be more accurate, all things considered.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Feb 15th 2020 at 3:37:38 AM

What do you think of the whole Amber Heard / Johnny Depp domestic abuse scandal? There is a huge petition wanting to remove Amber from future Aquaman movies due to the tapes.

Well said.

Toxic Masculinity is very harmful to men, but its sole relation to sexism is in how it's the manifestation of sexism against women. Anti-male sexism is not a meaningful systemic force.

(in regards to the edit: I think that's a great idea)

She's a vile abuser and like all such people should not be given a lucrative role.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 15th 2020 at 3:39:40 AM

Just change the name if it'll prevent confusion, especially if it'll also add the extra benefit of people who don't actually care about discussing the issues relevant to the thread from occasionally taking it over.

Assuming that Heard was seriously abusive to Depp (I've heard she went so far as cutting his fingers and falsifying wounds, haven't looked into this deeply enough to know how true it all is), my takeaway from the situation is that it's important to keep in mind that broad systemic forces aren't going to apply to literally every single situation. The world is a big and complicated place with a lot of moving parts, you aren't always going to be able to fit a situation into a pattern you expect (in this case, that Heard was a straightforward abuse victim) and you have to be prepared to accept that this can happen even if it isn't as common overall.

As far as it relating to men's issues, I believe Heard herself said in the leaked tape that nobody would ever believe Depp because he was a man. There were a lot of unflattering comments in the wake of that implying that Depp should have "grown a pair" and left Heard when she showed signs of being abusive, which is basically the same thing women receive in those scenarios except it's framed in the context of toxic masculinity, i.e "how dare he be weak enough to be abused by a woman and not decide to walk out".

Edited by Draghinazzo on Feb 15th 2020 at 7:52:52 AM

I dont know if remaning is a good thing or not, there is this tendency that because is not systematic or same as weoman problem, are just "issues" in a way that we just sort have problems.

Is a issue with language in general that can downplay problem men faces as thing that just sort kinda happen.

What matters is importance, I am not hurt by sexism as a man but I sure as hell have been hurt by toxic masculinity. I don't think sexism is an issue that meaningfully impacts men, not directly at least.

If this thread is about the serious issues we have to deal with collectively I'd say it's more productive to modify the title.

The way I'd word is that broadly speaking men don't suffer from institutional/systematic sexism, which is understandably the kind people are much more concerned about.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Feb 15th 2020 at 8:11:47 AM

Sexism is sexism, we shouldn't be afraid to call it what it is just because one side is usually more affected than the other.

Just like with racism.

That's...not how it works. The sex with the most political and socioeconomic power, by definition, cannot be victims of sexism. Conversely, the race with the most political and socioeconomic power cannot be victims of racism.

The -isms are about systemic prejudice, disadvantages, and casual oppression and dehumanization/objectification. By their nature, cis men and white people cannot be victims of sexism or racism, respectively.

Victims of non-systematic prejudice and toxic masculinity, respectively, on the other hand, absolutely.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Feb 15th 2020 at 4:35:27 AM

Focusing on something irrelevant (anti-male sexism) while ignoring something serious (Toxic Masculinity) is myopic behavior. There is absolutely no reason to waste time on misandry when it in no way effects men collectively, it's a complete waste of effort.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 15th 2020 at 4:23:26 AM

That's SYSTEMATIC racism/sexism.

The Academic definition of racism/sexism is purely systemic. If society as a whole isn't bigoted against a class then it's not an -ism.

I don't bother to use it but they are.

I agree that institutional and systemic system is more important and it's something that affects women in a much overtly negative and pernicious way, but what you're saying is only true if you take it for granted "x-ism = prejudice + power", which is not something everyone even in social justice circles agrees with.

x3 On mobile at the moment, but yes, I meant systematic.

But that’s the truth by definition. There is no such thing as sexism against cis men or racism against white people. They can be victims of non-systematic prejudice or toxic masculinity, but society is literally designed (has been for centuries) to put cis white dudes on top as the “normal average acceptable human.” Everyone else gets less and is treated as less, aka sexism and racism.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Feb 15th 2020 at 4:32:15 AM

I'd argue that it doesn't either way.

If you use the systemic definition of bigotry then it's not real, and if you use the colloquial definition it doesn't matter because dudes face way more serious issues and basic triage logic says wasting time on non-issues isn't worth it.

Edited by Fourthspartan56 on Feb 15th 2020 at 4:31:02 AM

It is possible to acknowledge that women are generally the bigger, systematic victims of sexism, while acknowledging that sexism against men is also possible and real. Whether you want to call that specific kind of sexism "Toxic masculinity" or not doesn't really matter in my opinion.

These two statements aren't in contradiction.

But I don't want to derail the thread.

Toxic masculinity and sexism are two different terms though, and they can’t be used interchangeably. Sexism is systematic oppression based on sex, toxic masculinity is men being expected to conduct themselves a certain way and being ostracized or ridiculed if they don’t.

Edited by ILikeRobots on Feb 15th 2020 at 4:33:53 AM