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Nov 9th 2018 at 4:37:42 PM

I was lied to!

Ah well, I'll finish the previous run at least.

Nov 9th 2018 at 9:47:13 PM

I'm not really sure what we're arguing anymore but the consequences of the Hulk's existence are those wrought by people who hunt him down, and you're basically applying the same logic the MU citizens use to justify their fear of Mutants.

When people's lives are being destroyed (both figuratively and literally) by the Hulk and Mutants, that fear starts getting justified.

HandsomeRob Return of the Gangsta Bear! from Moopet Theatre Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Return of the Gangsta Bear!
Nov 9th 2018 at 9:58:40 PM

So you're saying all mutant should be murdered because some of them might be dangerous then?

Cause that's the same logic I re-call Indiana 404 using when he claimed those dudes from Logan were totally justified in wiping out mutants there too.

I'm not gonna say there aren't dangerous mutants (or that Marvel has specifically focused on them, probably to their detriment), but that's just not cool man. Not cool at all.

Once again, wokka wokka!
Nov 9th 2018 at 10:10:41 PM

Not all of them should be murdered. However, when we have stuff like Dark Phoenix, Fatal Attractions, Apocalypse and so on, you kind of have to acknowledge that humans have very understandable reasons to be afraid.

And when the Hulk goes on a rampage that kills 24 people (which is what got him banished into space) you have to acknowledge Ross has a point no matter how much of a dick he is about it.

RodimusMinor Not actually a minor
Not actually a minor
Nov 10th 2018 at 6:17:31 AM

The problem is with those stories where it turns out people are right to be scared, not the characters themselves. Those stories miss the point of Hulk and the X-Men.

Nov 10th 2018 at 6:41:17 AM

These points are built on rather shaky ground to begin with. Itís highly questionable that a guy whose response when he gets angry is to immediately start breaking things is some misunderstood woobie. Itís flat out ridiculous to claim such a person would never kill someone even by accident.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
Nov 10th 2018 at 7:42:53 AM

Youíre acting like that every time Banner hulks out, heís making a deliberate choice to just people, but a lot of the time, itís beyond his control.

Oh God! Natural light!
Nov 10th 2018 at 7:48:34 AM

Far too many people with a history of violence make that excuse.

Blueace Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Nov 10th 2018 at 7:55:16 AM

I mean, everyone can lose their temper and take a swing at someone. When someone becomes a walking disaster when they do, OTOH...

Edited by Blueace on Nov 10th 2018 at 12:55:42 PM

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
Nov 10th 2018 at 8:06:16 AM

Iím aware of the subtext, and I can agree that that can be problematic. I donít think, however, that that invalidates the text, and going by the text, Banner has been dealt a very shit hand thatís in many ways out of his control.

My view of Ross is that he may have a point, but the major problem is that he only sees Hulk the monster, never Bruce Banner the human.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Nov 10th 2018 at 11:07:51 AM

Oh God! Natural light!
HandsomeRob Return of the Gangsta Bear! from Moopet Theatre Relationship Status: Too sexy for my shirt
Return of the Gangsta Bear!
Nov 10th 2018 at 8:12:47 AM

Yeah. Didn't Bruce used to constantly search for cures, only for Ross to show up with his Hulkbusters and attack him, screwing things up.

Bruce was trying to fix himself, but Ross was so hellbent on stopping him that he buggered things up all the time...or was that just in that old 90's series? I'm not sure.

Once again, wokka wokka!
Nov 10th 2018 at 8:23:38 AM

[up][up]Freudian Excuse Is No Excuse. Again, this sugarcoating of Banner feels dangerously similar to an excuse we see used for violent criminals, typically white male mass shooters. Iím not saying I liked Ultimate Hulk being a cannibal rapist but I can admit acknowledging the Hulkís monstrousness was one of that universeís better ideas.

I remember how in the wake of the Vegas shooting that many felt Netflix should cancel the Punisherís tv show as they felt promoting such a character would be in poor taste. Frankly, I feel the Hulk as a character is due for a similar recontextualising of how he is viewed.

Edited by windleopard on Nov 10th 2018 at 8:24:52 AM

RodimusMinor Not actually a minor
Not actually a minor
Nov 10th 2018 at 8:34:03 AM

The problem with what you're saying is that there is a literal in-universe explanation for why Bruce isn't to blame for his actions. You're applying real world logic to a fantastical scenario.

Blueace Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Nov 10th 2018 at 8:49:46 AM

One could say Hulk and Banner are mentally ill and need medication, which because of people like Ross, they never get it, making things worse for everyone.

Nov 10th 2018 at 9:20:57 AM

[up][up]Applying real world logic to fantastical settings is what Marvel does all the time. Iím simply holding them to the standards they set for themselves.

KarkatTheDalek Not as angry as the name would suggest. from Somwhere in Time/Space Relationship Status: You're a beautiful woman, probably
Not as angry as the name would suggest.
Nov 10th 2018 at 9:47:03 AM

That is fair, but I donít think your reasoning here works, as the Hulkís rampages are often legitimately out of Bannerís control - that is just a fact.

Your comparisons might have some merit on a subtextual basis, but if youíre saying that Banner should be held by real life standards, then you need to consider that the standards youíre holding him to are not applicable to his situation. You cannot apply real world logic to the Hulk, because there are no Hulks in real life - we do not have a set of standards for someone like him.

Iím not entirely sure how I feel about be comparison to mental illness, but I think itís more apt than the one youíre making.

Edited by KarkatTheDalek on Nov 10th 2018 at 12:49:58 PM

Oh God! Natural light!
Nov 10th 2018 at 2:46:58 PM

Here's an interesting question: which would be the legal reactions to Hulk? What crimes can he charged to him?

For starters, that whole Banner/Hulk thing is, for the law, meaningless. Hulk would not be accepted as a standalone legal person, independent from Banner. It would treated as a mental disorder, but for the law there is a single person, Bruce Banner. Who says that he has no control over the actions of his other self. Does that mean he's not legally responsible for them? Though question, but see Using Multiple Personality Disorder as Legal Defense.

But even if we accept the claim, that wouldn't mean that Banner can simply walk away scot-free. It means that he must be held in a location that will treat him and prevent him from harming others. If he escapes from the military to avoid that, then he's in resistance to authority (I don't remember the exact legal figure). He may not control his actions as Hulk, but if he stays a fugitive, then the damages he may cause are more difficult to defend with that figure.

There's the recent example where the Avengers come to detain him, and he hulks out on purpose, to resist detention. When he does this, he can be considered fully responsible of whatever happens next.

Ultimate Marvel: the best comics of all time
Tuckerscreator Icon by Umaimah @coloured_braids from Traveling through the Multiverse Relationship Status: Drift compatible
Icon by Umaimah @coloured_braids
Nov 10th 2018 at 11:06:38 PM

Jeremy Whitley of Unstoppable Wasp reveals a cut comic from Secret Wars: Secret Love.

Dangnabbit, we've could've had it all. Though I guess America dating a non-616 Kate would be a little uncharacteristic.

Edited by Tuckerscreator on Nov 10th 2018 at 11:06:59 AM

Nov 11th 2018 at 2:31:43 PM

[up] When you have the power to reality-jump, what's to stop you from dating all the Kates?

Edited by Eldritcho on Nov 11th 2018 at 2:32:16 AM

slimcoder Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armage
Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armage
Nov 11th 2018 at 2:32:34 PM

Well some might not like or want to date America.

Blueace Relationship Status: Chocolate!
Nov 11th 2018 at 2:35:44 PM

Just to be sure, is it cheating if you make out with another version of your significant other?

slimcoder Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armage
Never compromise. Not even in the face of Armage
Nov 11th 2018 at 2:37:25 PM

Well they are their own individuals with varying unique quirks & such so yes it kinda is.

Nov 11th 2018 at 6:20:09 PM

I'm thinking of a reality show where the host finds alternate reality versions of a couple, and have them swap partners for a holiday get away.


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