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Discussion of religion in the context of LGBT rights is only allowed in this thread.

Discussion of religion in any other context is off topic in all of the "LGBT rights..." threads.

Attempting to bait others into bringing up religion is also not allowed.

edited 4th Oct '13 8:26:43 AM by Madrugada

Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
Nov 12th 2013 at 6:44:26 PM

Wow, I'm on my laptop now so I can look at that thing, and talk about being a crock of shit. [up] and [up][up] are right it's a load of bull. Here are so highlights.

I compare how the young-adult children of a parent who has had a same-sex romantic relationship fare on 40 different social, emotional, and relational outcome variables when compared with six other family-of-origin types.

"a parent who has had a same-sex romantic relationship"

That's not a parent who is in a same-sex relationship, just one who has had a same-sex relationships, so it's not studying gay couples.

The New Family Structures Study collected data from nearly 3000 adults. ► I compare young adults who grew up with a lesbian mother or gay father. ► Differences exist between children of parents who have had same-sex relationships and those with married parents. ► This probability study suggests considerable diversity among same-sex parents.

"lesbian mother or gay father" again, a specific admittance of it not studying same-sex couples, just single parents who happen to be gay. "children of parents who have had same-sex relationships and those with married parents" Wow, talk about a misleading statement, apparently it's impossible to have a parent who has had a same-sex relationship that is also married. Ignoring the use of "married" instead of "in a stable long term relationship" (a massive oversight probably deliberately done to exclude many gays from the study), none of the subjects had married gay parents? Someone obviously got an A in selective sampling.

edited 12th Nov '13 6:44:38 PM by Silasw

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Jhimmibhob from Where the tea is sweet, and the cornbread ain't Relationship Status: My own grandpa
Nov 12th 2013 at 8:29:44 PM

Taking religion as a given doesn't mean it's absolved from criticism.

I thought that was kinda too obvious to bear saying. However, there's a difference between critique that engages a given religion's tenets, and arguments against religion tout court. Religion isn't "absolved" from the latter in general, but in a thread like this one the latter simply isn't pertinent.

"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
KnightofLsama Servant of the Golden Lady of Chaos from The Sea of Chaos Relationship Status: My elf kissing days are over
Servant of the Golden Lady of Chaos
Nov 12th 2013 at 11:24:37 PM

Knightof Lsama, I disagree with their assessment of the merits of the study.

How and why? We've given our reasons for not accepting the validity of that study's results. You can't just turn around and dismiss them without addressing them when you were the one that brought the study up in the first place.

Welcome to the Sea of Chaos
Silasw A procrastination in of itself from a handcart heading to Hell Relationship Status: And they all lived happily ever after <3
A procrastination in of itself
Nov 13th 2013 at 1:20:11 AM

[up][up] I'd say we're reasonably good at self policing that though, normally things don't get to far before someone says "take it to the philosophy thread".

"And the Bunny nails it!" ~ Gabrael "If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we." ~ Cyran
Morgikit Mikon :3 from War Drobe, Spare Oom Relationship Status: What's love got to do with it?
Mikon :3
Nov 13th 2013 at 5:40:02 AM

I doubt anyone here has an issue with religion in general. Speaking for myself, it's okay to have beliefs you can't prove. But when those beliefs result in a negative impact on real world people, I'm going to have something to say about that.

Irene Questige Class from Friend Code: 1203-9265-8784 and 4571-1389-1915 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Questige Class
Nov 13th 2013 at 5:44:49 AM

I'm sure there's somebody out there who is Anti-Religion to the point of ridiculousness. They always exist. XD

But seriously, yeah, if you're using Religion to justify harming others, some criticism is going you're way.

Omega Psycho Rangers Quest 64 Discord(very much safe for work)
Nov 13th 2013 at 5:56:45 AM

Apparently believing that homosexuality is a sin counts as harming.

Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Nov 13th 2013 at 5:58:38 AM

Less the belief, more what people are doing because of said belief. Being wrong is allowed, but denying people legal benefits for crappy reasons has to stop.

I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
Nov 13th 2013 at 5:59:33 AM

It does when your next conclusion is "therefore I see nothing wrong in absolutely ignoring evidence that favors gay people in favor of gut feelings to justify their current status as perfectly okay"

Nov 13th 2013 at 6:02:34 AM

[up][up][up]No. But believing it to be a sin and forcing others to agree and adher to those believes counts as harming.

I doubt anyone here has an issue with religion in general.
I do. evil grin

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Nov 13th 2013 at 7:56:37 AM

I suppose it is one thing to be religious and have standards you hold yourself to. However, it is not fair if you are religious to use your standards to hold everyone else to, people from different sects of the religion as you, people who are from completely different religions, and people who are not religious.

Irene Questige Class from Friend Code: 1203-9265-8784 and 4571-1389-1915 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Questige Class
Nov 13th 2013 at 7:59:31 AM

Likewise, if you're non-Religious, you shouldn't use that to hold standards towards other people either.

While, yes, Religion is heavily used to oppress people and has been for ages, it's not always the case, and the reverse can happen.

It's better if it never happens from anyone at all.

Omega Psycho Rangers Quest 64 Discord(very much safe for work)
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Nov 13th 2013 at 8:03:58 AM

While the reverse has happened I do not think it's anywhere close to happening in, say, the US.

Irene Questige Class from Friend Code: 1203-9265-8784 and 4571-1389-1915 Relationship Status: It's complicated
Questige Class
Nov 13th 2013 at 8:20:34 AM

I'm sure the US has had some problems with an Atheist condemning people based upon them being Religious here or there. Not like some known ones. Or to be clear, on a large scale, or even a noticeable one. But I doubt it never happened.

Obviously, we have more of a problem with Religion oppressing others in the US. I don't want to see it happen to anyone, Religion or no Religion. That's what I'm getting at. Not acceptable either way. Sadly, there's some out there who have no problems being a hypocrite about it. -_-

Omega Psycho Rangers Quest 64 Discord(very much safe for work)
Nov 13th 2013 at 8:58:10 AM

yeah, I may dislike a lot of religions and religious people, but I dont condone mistreating them because of their beliefs.

I can condone arguing with them about their beliefs in a healthy, debate style, argument, but just because I dont come even close to agreeing with Jhimmibob, Soban, or Maxima on religious-related stuff doesnt mean I think theyre terrible human beings who deserve to be treated with vile cruelty.

ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Nov 13th 2013 at 9:04:47 AM

Yeah, I guess what I was saying gets completely lost in translation as somebody who is a part of a non-prosthelytizing religion.

Jhimmibhob from Where the tea is sweet, and the cornbread ain't Relationship Status: My own grandpa
Nov 13th 2013 at 9:18:23 AM

I'd say we're reasonably good at self policing that though, normally things don't get to far before someone says "take it to the philosophy thread".

Oh, sure; and I think self-policing will continue to work well. I'm just saying that if generic atheist arguments on this particular thread tend to get ignored and politely passed by as non-germane, that doesn't amount to a "protective site policy" against them.

edited 13th Nov '13 9:20:35 AM by Jhimmibhob

"She was the kind of dame they write similes about." —Pterodactyl Jones
ohsointocats from The Sand Wastes Relationship Status: Showing feelings of an almost human nature
Nov 13th 2013 at 9:26:24 AM

Like, by the time I was in high school, at Sunday school our classes received lectures about how the separation of church and state worked in the US, and were taught what could and could not reasonably be held up as discrimination against us for our religion. I feel like this sort of thing is extremely important, for atheists and christains and non-christian religious people alike. Everyone should know what their rights are.

Nov 13th 2013 at 9:33:17 AM

thats also a good idea as that way people on either side dont start making up their own definitions that amount to "I feel insulted or threatened in my beliefs, therefore scream religious freedom to trample you"

deathpigeon Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Nov 13th 2013 at 1:05:25 PM

While, yes, Religion is heavily used to oppress people and has been for ages, it's not always the case, and the reverse can happen.

This reminds me of something Peter Rollins said:

In response to this the New Atheist will point out that they are not advocating another system, but rather are offering the critique of a system. They claim that atheism is a religion in the same way that baldness is a hairstyle or health is a disease i.e. it isn’t.

However this answer fails to address the way in which even the rejection of a system can itself operate in structurally the same way as a system. In other words, “Nothing” can be given a positive charge and can act as a tribal identity.

This is captured beautifully in a joke that Derrida would tell of a Rabbi walking into a synagogue and publically saying, “I am dust, I am nothing.” Then a priest came in and did the same. Followed by an Imam. Finally the caretaker of the building entered and also said, “I am dust, I am nothing.” On hearing this the three religious leaders turn to each other and whisper, “who does he think he is, saying that he’s nothing?”

The simple point here is that even a negation can take on a substantive form for the one holding it, and thus can become a new form of protection mechanism. It is this that we can see in New Atheism, where its rejection of a religious system takes on a religious texture and tone.

The point being that, despite atheism being the rejection of religion, essentially, it can still act as one.

While the reverse has happened I do not think it's anywhere close to happening in, say, the US.

The islamophobia that people like Harris and Dawkins regularly spew is a testament to it happening. Does it happen to the extent that it does with religion? No, not yet. Once it gains enough momentum and size, though, it will certainly happen.

Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Nov 13th 2013 at 1:15:32 PM

The lack of religion can only act like that in the presence of religion though. It's a bit like an electromagnetic phenomenon known as a hole, where the lack of an electron can act like a positively charged particle.

edited 13th Nov '13 1:15:55 PM by Elfive

I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
deathpigeon Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Nov 13th 2013 at 1:30:25 PM

Um, no. Atheism can totally support oppressive institutions regardless of whether or not religion is around. Now, I'd argue it couldn't function like that if there was never religion because that would prevent it from ever having been a thing, but, now that it can be, it can function as a tribe or religion. Plus, I don't see religion ever completely going away since non-religious who read older religious stuff could certainly start believing it. In a mostly atheist world, they would certainly experience all sorts of oppression.

Elfive not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e from London
not sure this one's actually a skull, but w/e
Nov 13th 2013 at 1:50:34 PM

I think it would be more accurate to say that it does nothing to inhibit oppressive regimes than actually support them. There's always some other philosophy that actually causes all the problems.

I stopped worrying about strange men on the internet around the time I became one.
Nov 13th 2013 at 1:54:57 PM

Actually, I agree with DP here. If it is possible to divide a group into two, both of those things can become tribes. Relevantly to this thread, Christians and Homosexuals are two very broad tribes.

edited 13th Nov '13 1:55:46 PM by Soban

deathpigeon Relationship Status: One True Dodecahedron
Nov 13th 2013 at 1:57:29 PM

[up][up] No. It could definitely be used by systems of oppression to support the systems of oppression (not merely oppressive regimes, but also other systems of oppression like heteronormativity, white supremacy, capitalism, and the patriarchy). Those systems essentially act as opportunists that use whatever they can to justify themselves. That's not to say atheism necessarily ''will' be used in that way, just as religion often isn't used in that way, especially more radical religion, like liberation theology and death of god theology. Atheism is not special. It is not fundamentally different than anything else that these systems of oppression have used to justify themselves.

[up] Christianity isn't even really a tribe. Christianity is a host of many tribes, some of which ally themselves with queer liberation and some which don't and there are many queer folk who are a part of different sects of christianity.

edited 13th Nov '13 2:00:36 PM by deathpigeon


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