The Great and Grand Alternative History Discussion Thread.

An early armistice was probably never realistically in the cards. Far likelier would have been an outright Central Powers victory—both sides were extremely close to blinking in the final years, and it was almost a crapshoot who it'd be.

Whether victory or early truce, however, the Ottoman Empire would still probably have been toast: by the 20th century, its resources, administrative reach, and military power were well and truly sapped. The only question was who would end up forcibly dismantling it, and on whose terms.

edited 9th Jun '12 8:37:43 AM by Jhimmibhob

What if Japan refused to surrender after 2 Atom Bombs and promise to fight on until every last Japanese man, woman and child has died for the Emperor.

Would America back off and negotiate a peace? Or would it take this as proof that the Banzai Japs really are the insane, sub-human monsters of propaganda and exeterminate them as a favor to the world.

Would America look itself in the mirror and say: "We are better than the Germans. Germans wanted to Genocide the nationless Jews. We just Genocided the Japs on their home nation and sent our native, American born Japs to concentration camps without killing them."

Will the world wide acceptance of such a line of thought lead to world peace through fear? People showing loyalty to nation states as protection from other people in other nation states?

edited 9th Jun '12 12:18:32 PM by Natasel

I don't think Germany could have won World War I. They might have been better at the whole war business overall, but even while they were freeing up men from the Eastern Front the Entente was pounding them with tanks. I think it's possible that it could have ended as a draw, however.

As to Japan not surrendering after nuclear warfare, that is incredibly unlikely. The problem with that idea is that it assumes they looked at nuclear weapons in 1945 like we do today, which is simply untrue. You don't vaporize two cities in an instant when that was impossible before and then turn around and say that you'll still be fighting.

And if Japan was really, truly that insane—they were not—I have no doubt in my mind that Truman would have let his generals nuke them again.

Real life is not Code Geass.

edited 9th Jun '12 12:21:04 PM by DerelictVessel

Oh, I wouldn't be too sure about the insane thing. This is Japan we're talking about.

The fact that it took TWO nukes to convince them to stop is a big sign that they first nuke didn't do the job of convincing them to stop.

Politics aside though, a strange cultural change ripple may come out of this.

Without Japan, there probably won't be any Anime, Manga, Hentai, (and no tentacle monster sex in the world, good or bad. ) Sushi or reverance to the Katana, Samurai, Ninja, etc.

So, if Truman had Japan turned into a lifeless radioactive wasteland, what would fill the cultural niche that Japan fills today?

(True, Real Life is far more fucked up.)

edited 9th Jun '12 12:33:30 PM by Natasel

That isn't strictly true. At most, it only took one. The second was not for Japan, it was a demonstration to the Soviet Union.

It is in fact arguable whether the first one did anything either, as well. So no, Japan was not insane. Its leaders were stupid and/or crazy at times, but the people were on the verge of revolution anyways when we came to the end of the war. It is plausible that we could have just sat and let Japan collapse in on itself, but that was not desirable to the Truman Administration at the time due to the Soviet's encroachment on the area.

I find your focus on how the devastation of Japan would simply result in a lack of Japanese culture (primarily modern Japanese pop-culture), rather than the fact that it would result in the death of millions and the lack of existence of millions more to be both unsettling and annoying. The absence of Japan would be felt far more in the political and economic sphere than in the cultural sphere, because until recently Japan didn't have a lot of cultural impact on the West.

By 1918, both sides were haemorrhaging men, matériel, and treasure. The Allies had the edge, but it didn't always look that way up close; it's highly plausible that they might have snapped first.

As for Japan: before the A-bomb was proven feasible, the Allied brass already seemed resigned to a bloody ground war, all the way to Tokyo if necessary. They desperately hoped it wouldn't come to that, but were willing to pursue that strategy if they had to. And unless I'm misremembering, several of the top Japanese generals were prepared to grind it out even after the bombs dropped, and only the Emperor's command kept that from happening.

edited 9th Jun '12 12:45:58 PM by Jhimmibhob

I feel that it would have come down to France's resolve, as Britain was much more effective at propaganda and press control.

It is true that the generals were prepared to launch a coup to depose the Emperor and continue the war. I would counter, however, that it is highly likely that this would have caused a civil war within Japan and effectively ended their ability to do damage outside their own country anyhow. At the very most, I would argue that after the first nuclear weapon the Second World War was over no matter what. At least, I would argue that the nukes were unnecessary save for our apparent political need to control Japan instead of allowing it to fall under Soviet influence.

Point taken ... but if their anime & movies are anything to go by, it's not as if the Japanese themselves exactly treat nation-destroying dystopic scenarios in the most morally serious terms.

edited 9th Jun '12 12:50:51 PM by Jhimmibhob

So, killing everyone in Japan and turning the place into a glowing rock would have been something.

Quite a loud and graphic demostration to anyone (like Russia) about the power of America and willingness to do whatever it takes to come out on top.

Still, there is a point.

Japan's demise isn't just going to affect the art and culture scene, the island nation did somehow become a economic powerhouse after the war with a lot of influence in cars, electronics, food and more.

Would Silicone Valley pick up the slack and gotten more money? Would computers be slower today? Would eating uncooked fish be reserved for college guys swallowing Goldfish?

edited 9th Jun '12 12:54:52 PM by Natasel

I don't think every alternate history has to be steeped in deep philosophical questions, but I resent the implication that "oh no our animes and mangas!" is somehow more important than the nuclear annihilation of a country of tens of millions and the political, sociological, and economic implications thereof.

Which would have lasted all of three-five years until the Soviet Union had nuclear weapons of their own.

edited 9th Jun '12 12:54:15 PM by DerelictVessel

Well, what did you expect after a country is annahialated?

The tens of millions dead aren't going to have much political, socioloical or economic impact because they are dead.

The living can easily step into the place of the dead.

The anime/manga arts and sushi eating are the only things that comes to mind when I think about what would be missing in this world were Japan wiped out to the last in WW 2.

Its the only thing I know of that they created that could not be duplicated or have a close enough substitution for by anyone else today.

edited 9th Jun '12 7:10:24 PM by Natasel

I think he also means the impact on other countries, considering the fact that an entire country of people was destroyed.

Also, there may be multiple things else that could be gone. Influential people, normal people who nonetheless affected the world, post-WWII innovations, ideas, etc.

Considering that Japan pretty much pissed off all of their neighboors, sided with the losers of WW 2 and (in this scenario) were wiped out in nuclear fire, I'd say very little change.

Maybe the Indians would mourn their passing but I can't think of anyone would cry for them asides from the Japs in America's concentration camps.

Maybe the world gets a new set of Jews ala Japs? (Would there have been enough outside Japan to preserve the Japanese Phenotype?)

A bit more thought:

Military-

If Japan was turned into a radioactive rock, it would be quite a dead zone (might have to come up with a new term to describe that terrain).

Strategically, no one would want it, bases wouldn't be set up on it and asides from blocking shipping routes, would have very little impact over all.

There are near by islands that could serve as staging grounds for projecting American (the winner) power anyway. Philippines and Taiwan for example, fit the bill and resources that would have gone into Japan could be reallocated to other sites.

Political-

Japan itself is dead so it would probably only come up (if at all) in the same way Native American Indians would come up when talking about American Politics.

The viability of Nuclear Extermination as a foreign policy would be a historic fact and likely be used to threaten the rest of the world into complying with America's wishes.

Should the Russians (or anyone else) get their hands on nukes, a nuclear war is almost certain to occur as everyone would know what would happen if the enemy were to have such a weapon and it would be seen as a rational move to avoid becoming "Japped".

A post-appocalypic world because Japan got glassed. (Just came out when I was typing. Odd.)

Sociological-

I got nothing.

edited 9th Jun '12 7:41:17 PM by Natasel

Considering that plenty of half Japanese were dotted round mainland Asia for various reasons, not to mention fully Japanese "comfort women" just left to fend for themselves when the forces pulled out at times... yeah.

Also mind you, it's not like Japan went into isolation after the war. So everything that they had some hand in would be different now.

Well, right after the war, Japan was a bombed out wreck who couldn't do much even if it wanted to.

So a dead Japan really isn't all the different.

Later, we'd probably miss small cars, electronics like digital watches, game consoles (Nintendo come to mind) and the like, but I'm not 100% sure if was uniquely Japan or if some other nation would have done that instead of Japan anyway.

Well, cars were invented in either America or Britain, and it's not that unlikely that one of the major manufacturers would have made small cars without Japan. And I think PC games probably would have reigned over all for a long time before consoles became a thing. Possibly even have computers advance more quickly to handle the games, with a lack of the idea of game consoles. Or Microsoft would invent the X Box a lot sooner.

So... not that much different.

Edit: A look through the site reveals to me Apple's early 80's ventures into gaming consoles. Something called Acorn which I think is a British company, and the Commodore.

So really, not all that different. A lack of competition from Japan means one of those brands would have come to prominence.

edited 9th Jun '12 9:00:17 PM by AceofSpades

Well yes, but look at Japan now. Something tells me that things would be noticeably different, and not just in entertainment.

Thing is, there are lots of places like Japan right now.

Singapore, Taiwan, Korea, all small nations devastated by war that bounced back to become developed, modern nation states in more or less the same area and occupying the same niche (more or less)

What was uniquely Japan that these other nations could not do?

Preserve the Japanese Language maybe? Something the rest of the world would give a damn about?

edited 9th Jun '12 9:12:37 PM by Natasel

I don't know. I guess something just tells me that things may end up differently.

Well, Japan is what it is because they focused so much on making themselves a tech savvy culture, in some cases at the expense of their older culture. They rapidly modernized both during and before the war.

My guess is a somewhat poor tourist destination if they didn't go that route.

Japan might not be as signigicant at all....

Anyway, try the other of the world.

American Civil War: The South Won.

Perhaps the South's strategy used more assassins, acting earlier and with more success to eliminate the Union threat.

Abe Lincon is dead, and the catch phrase would be "The North Will Rise Again!".

Slavery is enshrined as an inalienable right to all whites and no one may infringe upon this most hard won and sacred institution upon pain of being branded a Union Rebel and an insane social outcast that is out of touch with the times and truth that inferiors are better off as slaves.

Mt. Rushmore will obviously not have Lincon's face on it, or the coin.

The American government may be abolished and reformed in a way that heavily favors the South and pro-South policies as well as war repatriations will impoverish the North but enrich the South, leaving the ideal of the "Southern Plantation Comforts" as The model for the rich and sophisticated to emulate.

Industrialization will still occur but it would be something that is done by slaves and far away from the gentrified estates of whites for the most part, and it will be brutal in ways that might even surpase Britain when it started industrializing.

Women's rights may suffer, America's pro-slavery stance will likely be upheld by its vast military strength and with the greater divide between rich and poor, black and white will develop diverse market conditions that allow for a better life for the whites, which the rest of the world can copy and enjoy.

Medicine, may advance by leaps and bounds if they are not restrained by "Human" testing concerns.

Assuming nothing drastic prevents the World Wars, America will likely side with the Nazi's as their dogmas are more similar, and tension has probably built with America with the rest of Europe trying to pressure America to renounce slavery and America beliving the Europeans are soft headed dreamers who want to ruin their way of life and slavery based prosperity.

Nazi Germany has most of Europe, America Annex's Canada and/or South America and the USSR is in stuck in a stalemate against Nazi Germany.

Meanwhile in Asia, China falls to Japan and all the surrounding nations/colonies fall under the Imperial banner.

The dust (more or less) settles with Greater America, "Asia", Nazi Europe (w/ Middle East) being semi-allied powers and Commie USSR being the sole bastion of Hope, Freedom, Egalitarianism and Fraternity for ALL Humanity (Damn this is strange) in a world that has abandoned such ideals.

Suprisingly, Most of Africa is still the same. A fucked up mess with the slight change of being a place to pick up some "native" stock for slave breeding.

edited 9th Jun '12 10:23:30 PM by Natasel

Personally, if the Civil War had ended with the South's winning, I think that American history would have involved a hell of a lot more fighting with Mexico and Canada. Both countries where slavery wasn't exactly accepted. (I may be wrong about Mexico, but Canada by and large had no use for it. Instead, they went with paying the Chinese incredibly poorly.) And I don't think the North would have kindly acceded to the loss either; there was plenty of the Northwest to run away into, and they probably would have gotten the Indian's help as a matter of practicality. Probably Canada's help, as no one likes a Civil War occurring right next door to them, and possibly Mexico would help or act independently to regain the land lost previously in the Mexican American War.

Remember, all the factories were in the north at the time. Lack of those particular resources is a large part of what lost the South the war. They'd have to occupy every damn one of those areas, or burn it down and deprive themselves of those resources. Chances are they would possibly industrialize a bit faster so they have some stuff stored in home territory. Don't know how much this would help them.

As such, the abolishment of slavery would have been forced on the country, and I think it would have occurred before WW 2, as we'd be an occupied territory.

edited 9th Jun '12 11:06:32 PM by AceofSpades

What makes you so sure Canada and Mexico would/could annex Civil War America?

In my previous post I thought it would go the other way. Canda and South America fall and become part of the USA, which will be renamed Greater Amerca. Or just America.

Slavery becomes sacred and it becomes great to be white.

This is something glossed over (heh) in the discussion of "what if Japan decided to keep fighting": America couldn't have nuked them again immediately. Those two nukes were simply the only ones we had at the time; I'm not sure how long it would have taken to make more, but probably longer than it would to raze Japan the old-fashioned way. Certainly we didn't have the resources to turn the island into a radioactive rock.

Of course, Japan didn't know that we didn't have more bombs, but that's besides the point- had they decided to dig in, the allies would have had to either invade the mainland or wait however long it takes to make more nukes.