Manga/Dragon Ball

It wouldn't shock me.

Toyotarou knew he'd be second place in a lot of parts, so he got to fix some things the manga didn't cover (or just put his own spin on them).

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The character ended up as even more of a waste in the manga, so that isn't saying much.

I think Jiren did his job alright, but if he ever shows up again, I sure hope they build upon what little development he had in the TOP.

Well, the manga just kinda rushed things due to being well behind.

Really, I wish they'd just picked a version and then followed that.

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Really disagree with that. I don't see how he was wasted with a consistent characterization, believable motives and flaws.

Especially in the extended version of the manga ending (included in the tankobon) which has extra interaction between Goku and Jiren.

This bout to be another manga and Anime debate again isn't it...

Jiren is only marginally better in the manga, but he's basically a blank slate so...anything is an improvement over nothing

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

Honestly, Jiren ended up a pretty good character by the last couple of episodes, and even though his "very stoic, looks down on weak people" phase lasted way too long, he still did his job as an unbreakable wall with aplomb. He doesn't deserve that much of a bad rap.

Nah he didn’t get that good....... or any sort of good.

He was an uncharismatic jerk-off from beginning to end.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."

One of the biggest problems with Jiren to me wasn't that he was boring, it was that he was incompetent.

There were several episodes that had the characters, and himself, talking like he was going all out or showing them things they hadn't seen before when we, the audience, knew for a fact that wasn't true. So it came off like he was just fucking around and wasting time for no reason, while simultaneously being upset that the people that by all rights he should have been able to eliminate easily weren't eliminated. Even though it was less because of anything they were actually doing, and more just himself.

Edited by LSBK on Jul 12th 2019 at 9:26:52 AM

It basically comes down to the TOP structure being a regular tournament disguised as a Free for All meaning that outside of 7,6 and 11 the other universes are none factors

Hell it even has the classic Last Arc Rival -Hit- taken out by New Arc Rival -Jiren-

It comes off like Toriyama just refused to be of any actual help so the anime team spun their wheels

Okay so Jiren's not the Talkative type, okay fine, That means the only way to really make him compelling is be a actions speak louder type of guy...

Well a good way to have it to where he is actively partaking in the fight... and NOT make the other universes fodder for

Hell I'd have made it an ambiguous Whose strongest scenario where every universe has atleast ONE fighter whose got a shot at winning, Yes Jiren would ultimately emerge as the guy to be beat... but Jiren doing something that proves it > Jiren sitting on his ass being bored by the whole thing while everyone drones on about his NOBLE CHARACTER and UNYIELDING POWER

Edited by FrozenWolf2 on Jul 12th 2019 at 9:24:29 AM

Yeah. That would have been better.

Dragonball is pretty bad at making it clear certain dudes are just fodder.

...well, that's only in hindsight I suppose.

Did anyone really think Goku would take out Mummyman and Spike the Devil man so easily?

Did we truly believe all the androids would suffer from the Big Bad shuffle?

Could we have expected Babidi and his minions to be totally not up to the task of even getting dirt on the Saiyans?

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Toriyama has a rather formulaic structure he goes about in his tournament arcs, and especially his new rivals for Goku. And to break it down, allow me to post a meme video:

To summarize: You want to set up why the tournament is important to the characters (and by extension, the audience), introduce the new rivals and characters, ground the character's power levels, and build the inevitable confrontations between them in the main tournament.

Blowing it up to a full blown 80 man battle royale was doomed from the beginning, because it eliminates the very premise of a good tournament arc. Maybe if the Battle Royale was a prelude to an actual tournament, and get rid of all of the lesser universes, then it might have been onto something better.

But Toriyama plays this as a normal tournament arc, but with a Battle Royale format. So it neither feels like a proper tournament nor a real battle royale.

Edited by BlackYakuzu94 on Jul 12th 2019 at 10:55:14 AM

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

Battle Royale should be like...a whole series worth.

YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.

It was something new, but he didn't fully commit.

I think he's too much a creature of habit. It means solid consistency, but I think unless he really commits to a character or concept, he's not willing to go outside his comfort zone, so if something doesn't click or he doesn't care enough for a character, he quickly tosses it out.

And now he's not even writing the series, which means he can put in the bare minimum work and leave others to figure things out.

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The other universes besides 6, 7 and 11 were not fodder though, not in the anime anyway. Universe 3 was also formidable, and despite not having any powerhouses universe 4 did alright in both versions(more eliminations in the manga I think but lasted longer in the anime).

9 really had nothing going for it and 2 literally pulled a trump card out of its ass after it's plans proved to be fruitless, but both universe teams nonetheless showed much character and technique. They had presence and their demises were solemn, more so than 4's. You could call them fodder as far as power levels go, but narrative wise they were important. The only fodder team both ways was universe 10, and that's just a shame in my opinion because the gods and angel had some of the strongest personalities(Cus made a youtubegodtube dance video!).

Plus, the anime tournament of power was doing such a good job with what is usually one of my gripes with Dragon Ball. The overwhelming majority of tournament participants are just so forgettable. They're too weak to matter, they've got nothing in the way of motivation, they don't even have any cool tricks. The sole exception was the only tournament Goku won. There was the King Chappa rematch, Kami in a man's body, "Invincible" Cyborg Tao, the return of Chi Chi, almost every participant had something going for them. The tournament of power looked like it was going the same way. Utter chaos, but everyone's managing to stay on the ring despite it. These are all top tier fighters(finally)! No wait, universe 10 sucks, only two guys on it could even put up a fight. The only other thing they had were flyers, and one of them was the very first elimination!

Universe 2, have the potential to be just as powerful as the favorites universe 11. Clearly haven't reached that potential. Three have hammered in combat transformations, one has multiple transformations. Special techniques out the ass. One has Ki blast immunity. Make it okay to give energy from the stands, setting up Goku's spirit bomb.

Universe 3, single best prepared team on the stage. Consistent theme across all but two members visually distinct from all other teams and conceptually shared only with 7. Stealth expert. Blob Monster. Stone wall. Form changing fighter. Constant butt of jokes. Two fusions.

Universe 4, strongest fighters are only average but are the most tactical team on the stage. Have they have two stealth experts, one of whom borders on microscopic. Two illusion masters, one of whom is a flying gas bag. One of their stronger members is a fat roller who can expand half her body. One is a child spy who gets stronger the longer he stays in violent environments, he's literally growing, and has a combat transformation. Even the wimpy seductress has some overlap in techniques with Ganos, almost like they're a team or something. Blind guy with long robes who navigates by tracking scents.

Universe 6, even the do nothing had a running gag and half are above average. The second most prepared team in the entire tournament and the second most tactical. Make fusion okay, setting up Anilaza. Three break limits and achieve new forms. Best coordinated assault, AutaMagetta!

Universe 7, well we know all of them and half are above average. Two break limits and achieve new forms during the tournament. Score the most eliminations, and most importantly prevent the most eliminations. Technically show the largest number of participants due to substitution of Buu. Made it okay to use accessories, setting up Kefla and Anilaza.

Universe 9, numerous techniques, heavy use of coordinate assaults, incredibly bad but nonetheless clearly implemented strategy, distinct physical attributes and resistances. Provided evidence that Super Saiyan Vegeta by this point in continuity is stronger than Super Saiyan Four Goku in the mid point of the Shadow Dragon Arc(as if there was any doubt)

Universe 10, Sumo guy and Obuni the illusionist. That's it.

Universe 11, consistent visual theme across team not shared with any others. Numerous techniques, several coordinate strategies, two long term concurrent plans. Three above average power houses. Four fighter form changes, two resulting from limit break. Made it okay for gods to direct fighters with telepathy, setting up 18 versus Ribrianne.

One of these teams is not like the others. And not in a good way.

That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes

Ok, when I say "fodder", I mean characters that the audience might have some empathy towards.

A lazy millennial who's good at what he does.

Okay, while I agree with everything you're saying, you're gonna have to explain this to me:

Provided evidence that Super Saiyan Vegeta by this point in continuity is stronger than Super Saiyan Four Goku in the mid point of the Shadow Dragon Arc(as if there was any doubt)

Smelly Finger was a cool attack.

YO. Rules of the Internet 45. Rule 45 is a lie.

Best Universe

¡PONLE QUE DIGA!:"¡HUMONGOSAURIO HASTA LA MUERTE!"

An list of people who Goku has not managed to beat in a fight:

At first I thought that 19 shouldn't count, but the list is people Goku never beat (and the reasons why don't fully count).

It does bring up two points I never considered: (1)Goku and Vegeta needing to fuse to beat Broly means that Nu Broly is far more powerful than his original incarnation (since Goku didn't need to fuse to beat him, though he did need an outside boost). Then again, considering that he was fighting God and Blue with base and then base Super Saiyan, saying he's much stronger than his old self is kinda a give in.

2) Raditz (who we constantly treat as a Memetic Loser) is in the same category as Vegeta: Goku won the overall battle, but ultimately lost the one on one fight with him. It took multiple factors to beat Raditz and Goku himself was only one of those.

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No thanks. Not interested in Geekdom.

Yes, yes Bacterian was very memorable. I don't rank him among the worth nothing tournament participants.

Hyssop the frozen tree man blew on Vegeta, freezing his arm solid in the exact same manner Eis Shenron did to Super Saiyan Four Goku. Blue tree then says his breath was at absolute zero, meaning it can get no colder. And Vegeta just turns super saiyan and breaks it. Again can get no colder, absolute zero, negative two seven three point one five on the Celsius scale. In gas form no less! That's some hardcore cold, but to Vegeta it isn't worth anything more than his most basic super mode at this point. Where Super Saiyan Four Goku, who had ice that at best was only as severe as Hyssop's and most likely was much warmer and solidified from a much less intense pressure, was all whining about how he didn't know how to get the ice off.

Now power scaling is not my hobby, believe it or not, but that is personally one of my most hated GT moments. Counting the DBZ anime and the non serial movies, which GT does when convenient, Goku was able to handled being encased totally by ice with just Kaioken and Super Saiyan, the former in an area where the ice was so tough Piccolo Jr could not break it with his moon dusting shot, could not pierce it with his Raditz killing light of death, the latter in an area with higher gravity and much higher atmospheric pressure than Earth. GT's telling me that kind of ice can't hold Goku even when he's covered head to toe, but a Goku who should be hundreds of times stronger than those Gokus, estimating low, in base, can't do so much as free his arm as a Super Saiyan Four? What's so special about Eis's ice then? GT neglected to say, and therefore Super Saiyan Four and GT Goku are jokes. Stronger than Buu my ass!

It's kind of like my issue with Evolution Vegeta and Hearts, but I digress. Power scaling is not my hobby, I didn't even know the words power and scaling even followed each other in any context when I saw that scene. I was just applying middle school physics! Now here are some abbreviated collegian physics. Some substances will remain liquid even at absolute zero, unless a great amount of pressure is applied to them in addition to cold. Helium is a famous example. Hyssop's Breath Weapon was absolute zero as a gas and then compressed directly to solid around Vegeta's arm! That's just basic writing, consistency, following what has been previously established, or rather would be if the Super anime used the Z filler and non serial movies, which it doesn't. Super could just said, "Ha ha, the enemy is ice cold and now Vegeta's dumb ass is frozen!". But they went all in on low temperature phase transition for his base form and plain super saiyan was enough to beat it. Super Saiyan Vegeta circa tournament of power is stronger than Super Sayain 4 Goku circa Shadow Dragon Brothers.

Still can't breathe in space like Batman though.

That's why he wants you to have the money. Not so you can buy 14 Cadillacs but so you can help build up the wastes

I would have thought by now the Saiyans could power up to even survive in space

But then again, they have the tools that make that redundant so why bother

Its why if certain versions of Superman wanted to, they could asphixiate the Z fighters to death, especially Pre-crisis Super man with his Soler System Tier Sneezing.

Watch Symphogear

W Hooops! Wrong thread! Sorry!

Edited by Guy01 on Jul 13th 2019 at 8:10:48 AM

Ok, who let Light Yagami in here?

Wooo damn was the final U4 fighters wastes of some decent gimmicks.

For a universe hyped on using clever tricks and deceit..... there wasn't really much of that.

"I am Alpharius. This is a lie."