German Politics Thread

They also want to bring back the draft. And lower criminal responsibility to 12!

Edited by Forenperser on Apr 18th 2021 at 12:19:35 PM

The latter is a somewhat justified demand, since it has become clear that our system doesn't work when it comes to extreme cases (like minors who have been involved in literally dozens of theft and assault cases).

Yes I am sure lowering the age of criminal responsibility to 12 and sentencing everyone as adult the day they hit 18 is going to do wonders to lower criminal rates and prevent crimes, like the harsh sententing in the US for even the slightest of drug offenses has effectively won the war on drugs.

Wait. *checks notes*....Oh. Nevermind.

Seriously, are you *honestly* going "maybe the Afd has a point here"? Because this is some populist "blue lives matter" Bullenscheiße the wannabe fascists are spewing together with their demand for higher sentences for 'attacks on officials' (as long as its not the Nazis doing the attacks I assume, gonna needs their votes after all) to position themselves as 'tough on crime'.

And hey, its not like THE FUCKING NAZIS demanding for a wider net of people that can be arrested has *ever* been a bad thing. Right?

...I'm betting 5 Euro that he's now going to trot out the 'But the criminal clans!' as if those were the god damned threat to democracy and our free society that the Afd wishes it could openly be. Any takers?

And I'm not saying that there's not some holes in our justice system that needs patching, and improving, but *this aint it*.

Edited by 3of4 on Apr 18th 2021 at 1:31:12 PM

Anywhere I can read about these minors who have been involved in literally dozens of theft and assault cases? Sounds intriguing.

12 is pretty high for an age of criminal responsibility, globally speaking. Keep in mind that the ACR is the age where any kind of legal consequences for the offender at all become available. Most countries IIRC have that under 10. It doesn't mean juvy for your first case. It doesn't detract from the overall crazy of the AFD's general platform though (do they still want conscription back? Watt für n Scherz)

Edited by somerandomdude on Apr 18th 2021 at 6:56:31 PM

The EU nations do tend to skew higher in this regard. 16~18 as the ACR seems to be more common among them, but it's on the high end globally.

The USA btw has this vary state by state. Note that most states don't even have an ACR, and the state with the oldest ACR has it at 12.

Edited by M84 on Apr 19th 2021 at 12:16:21 AM

In the US, the system is set up to get black kids an early start on their prison career, so they get arrested for schoolyard fights and scribbling on desks. That's not a system that needs to be repeated elsewhere.

(Also notable: In the US system, juveniles have no right to a jury trial.)

On the other hand, there needs to be a system for dealing with, for example, minors who jack cars before they're able to drive (this is a thing). If juvenile delinquents can't be dealt with criminally, then what measures can be taken?

Edited by Ramidel on Apr 18th 2021 at 10:00:05 AM

To those familiar with US politics, it should probably come as little surprise that of the states that do have an ACR, the one with the lowest ACR is North Carolina, which sets their ACR at age six.

I'm surprised...that they have one at all.

~eagleoftheninth: I don't know about theft, the only other thing that comes to mind is this incident a couple years ago.

I don't know anything about what would make a good ACR but I'd be wary of copying any US ideas on any concept related to criminal law. I always have the impression that US criminal laws are written on impulsiveness, not on the basis of cost/benefit analysis.

I am certainly not for sentencing minors as adults, but it should be possible to send children into correctional facilities ( not prisons) if they get a serious criminal record. Getting them out of their criminal environment might be a way to save them. It is certainly preferable to just ignore it and let the child become a hardened criminal.

Harsher sentences for attacking officials (something which has become a serious problem not only for police officers, but also firemen and paramedics). If you assault someone while he is trying to save someone's else life, you should face a mandatory prison sentence.

Just because the Af D is bad doesn't mean that they don't raise any valid points, they wouldn't be as succesful as they are otherwise. Luckily they have also included demands - like leaving the EU - that are unpopular even among their own voters so that is not going to help them.

And yes, conscription is a joke. What might be a good idea is to introduce a mandatory social year for retirees, most of which are still in very good health and who might find a beneficial way to spend their time on.

Edited by Zarastro on Apr 19th 2021 at 1:21:04 PM

How about doing something sensible and strenghtening and better funding the social state and youth agency's ability to take care of those kids instead of lowering the age by which they can be brought before a judge. Because that is already possible independent of lowering the age by which they could get a criminal record.

But since the Afd is wanking to the tree of the 'traditional family' the idea of the state taking away children from parents that are patently unsuited for that duty is anathema to them, so this bullshit it is.

The Afd only has a point if one doesn't really spend much time considering the reason they make it and the wider implications about them. They are FUCKING POPULISTS, of course they will try to make statements that are appealing on first glance and don't hold up to any deeper inspection.

And as for "successful", well, it ain't 2018 anymore.

Edited by 3of4 on Apr 19th 2021 at 1:37:44 PM

Curious since Merkel's term is running out and I don't really follow German politics much ?

Whose expected to replace her.

Well, that's a bit of a mess.

The SPD and Greens have their Candidates for the Election whereas the Union....*waves toward a giant tire fire* is working things out.

And by that I mean that the party chiefs of the CDU and CSU have a big honking bullfight to see who gets the top spot which is just hilarious if you don't vote CDU.

Let's just hope the CDU gets enough of a walloping in September that their leadership won't matter in regards to the chancellorship.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Apr 19th 2021 at 1:49:17 PM

Not if their votes end up with the AFD. I prefer the tire fires to swastikas.

The Afd has been a tire fire of its own with the "say the quiet part *quiet*" and the Neo-NP Dlers being in open civil war within the party.

And unlike the CDU, their tire fire seems here to stay.

Edited by 3of4 on Apr 19th 2021 at 2:01:22 PM

I doubt that will happen.

Germany's far-right electoral potential has been estimated to be around 20% - the AfD never got to that point and based on the last polls I've seen, they're in decline already.

Their continuous push to the right - when they're already a far-right party - and embrace of frankly insane political positions has not done them any favours.

They already got the CDU voters that would even consider voting for such a party, i.e. the people who considered Merkel to be "too left-wing", but don't live in Bavaria so they didn't have the CSU as an option.

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Apr 19th 2021 at 2:02:33 PM

Youth agencies can only do so much if it is on a voluntary basis which is the problem with minors. It is possible for underage youths to refuse cooperating with Youth agencies without consequences. That needs to change.

Furthermore I wouldn't be so optimistic regarding the Af D's decline. Yes, they are doing badly now, but we are still not really feeling the economic fallout of the Covid pandemic. That the Af D was still getting 10% or more in Western states - despite low unemployment and the shit they were doing - is concerning, never mind how they have a real shot at becoming the strongest party in some Eastern state like Saxony.

I am not optimistic regarding the future. As it stands now, we will likely see a far left government with a chancellor whose main distinguishment is her gender (because lets' face it, there is no other reason why one would choose Baerboch over Habeck, the latter who at least has some government experience and can give insightful interviews unlike gaffe machine Baerbock) and with a populist party in government. Habeck may have said that they would be open for a coalition with the FDP as well, but I don't see how they would be able to bridge all the differences between their parties.

But then again, the CDU deserves it for her complacency, it is just too bad that the entire country will suffer for it.

Remember how our political system works - about 10 % is basically nothing if you want to actually govern.

And that's what's keeping the AfD from being as much of a threat as some other countries' far right - the system isn't set up to benefit them.

Even if the CDU would throw their principles over board and cooperate with them, they wouldn't get a governnment majority - not to mention that doing so would likely torpodo the CDU's future chances anyway, as moderates would desert them in droves.

Remember: The only way for fascists to get into power in Germany is if the conservatives give them a hand (again).

Secondly, since when are the Greens "far-left"?

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Apr 19th 2021 at 3:42:02 PM

The AfD's biggest enemy is the AfD itself.

The "Economic Liberals" under Meuthen and the "Flügel" under Höcke (yes, I know it's technically dissolved) can't stand each other and the constant infighting has already alienated quite a lot of their base.

The AfD has been in power struggles ever since its inception - Lucke got ousted by people to his right and then said people got ousted by people to their right.

I wouldn't be surprised if Höcke ended up taking over the party only to be ousted by people who think he wasn't fascist enough.

My point is that they get 10% even under ideal conditions working against them. Who knows what happens in the future when unemployment rates will rise. They are also much stronger in East Germany, not only in parliaments but also in city and town halls. There are towns where it will become difficult to govern without them in the long run if they manage to hold on to their current results.

Since their inception, with a short moderate period during the Fischer era. Which is why many party members tend to have no problem with marching alongside Maoist and Communist groups like it happened recently in Berlin. Even if you think that the Greens are currently moderate left, they would stil likely form a government with a left-sliding SPD and the far left Left Party.

I see Zarastro is getting on his Red Scare again, so lets consider this the usual end in which any reasonable debate can be had.

Edited by 3of4 on Apr 19th 2021 at 4:06:47 PM

By all means, if you can bring up any reasonable arguments why having the Left party in power is not terrible, pls share them. I'd like to be more optimistic over the future.