German Politics Thread

It is said, of course, that the first thing one should do when inside a hole is to stop digging.

Then again, if you buy into these Af D fellas, you're probably not particularly smart, anyway.

So AKK got herself into some hot water with LGBT activists after making a tasteless joke at the expense of intersex and trans people, and in 2015, compared gay marriage to incest.

1) Jesus Christ, if this woman is really the beat candidate the CDU could find to replace Merkel, that does not bode well for the Republic's political future.

2) She can, to briefly borrow a bit of Scots, get tae absolute fuck.

Given that the CDU had to be dragged kicking and screaming by every other party in Parliament to get marriage for everyone...yeah, not surprised that they still think this type of humour is in any way okay.

But don't worry, I'm sure come Wednesday the CSU will say something worse that allows CDU voters to point to that awfulness and hope people forget this.

Edited by 3of4 on Mar 4th 2019 at 11:09:18 AM

Oh joy. Can't wait for her to become Chancellor.

Is the SPD poised to do any better next election? Or are we going to see Chancellor Transphobe take office by 2021?

Edit: And also criticizing the Gov't for not being 'manly' enough. Geeze Louise, she just keeps getting worse...

Edited by AzurePaladin on Mar 4th 2019 at 10:19:17 AM

Well, chances are even at best they will have to form a coalition with either the SPD and the Greens and they will probably write some ironclad stuff into any Coalition treaty.

I mean let's be honest, most German LGBT folk probably laugh you out of the room for suggesting they vote Union anyway.

Well, I guess the people complaining she would be too similar to Merkel are going to shut up now...

I...wasn't?

I was wondering if other voters were still going to vote Union w/out Merkel. And if we'd avoid this particular person becoming Chancellor.

Yep, she's different from Merkel...because she's so much worse.

I was more relating to the idea of the Union appealing to them beforehand, sorry if I was unclear.

Eh, I'm being generous and shall assume stupid ignorance over outright maliciousness. But the fact that it's even that is pretty damning.

Bear in mind, she was my Minister President for half a decade, despite me voting against her twice. If she was an actual malicious transphobe I feel it would have been noticeable.

Doesn't make it better. Though.

Edited by 3of4 on Mar 4th 2019 at 4:54:06 PM

For some people - including me - Merkel was the only reason to ever vote CDU, so with her retiring and her successor within the party leadership being AKK, those people will gravitate towards other parties again.

Again, I'm under no illusions that LGBTQ people in Germany would probably not vote for the CDU. I wasn't referring to the LGBTQ community, I know that the CDU/CSU would have been unappealing even with Merkel.

I was referring to .

Edited by AzurePaladin on Mar 4th 2019 at 11:03:36 AM

Well, it's either the bad but tolerable CDU/CSU, or it's the AfD. Because there's no way the SPD is going to be able to win enough seats to form a government, even in a coalition.

It's a shit sandwich for everyone involved.

I thought she was Merkel Lite. She's now making Merkel look downright left-wing at this point. Fuck.

A small reminder: Merkel had her problems with gay marriage and adoption by gay people, too. She only shifted her position over time and after a lot of contact with the people in question - to "yeah, adoption is actually okay and I have still a problem with gay marriage, but this is something the majority apparently wants, so for tactical reasons I will allow my party members to vote for it if they want to.

AKK comes pretty much from the German "rural area with small tight knight population clusters" mindset (no offense meant towards the Saarland or any other rural area), meaning she comes from an area in which the church and the Karnevalverein are still important parts of the social construct, and that influences naturally your point of view, too.

So the downside here is that AKK isn't as progressive as she should be by far. If she becomes Chancellor, she will be mostly dragged into a more progressive direction by the coalition partner instead of moving into the direction on her own. The upside is that AKK seems to have the same ethics as Merkel had, too, and a sense for fairness. So at least you can trust her that she won't sell out the country or the people living in it for some quick bucks, as the likes of Merz or Spahn would.

It is pretty unlikely that the SPD will win against the CDU in the next election...but there is a possibility, that the Greens might. But the CDU will most likely be part of any coalition.

So...AKK is hardly my favourite candidate for chancellor, but she wouldn't be the end of the world either. There is still a difference between "I am conservative, so I can act like a complete hypocrite while indulging in my hatred" and "I am conservative, so my principles and outdated ideas often stand in the way of me seeing the full picture".

Edited by Swanpride on Mar 4th 2019 at 10:43:38 AM

I'm sure the German LGBT community would feel extremely reassured that their outward-facing representative doesn't believe in their rights, but their coalition partner might fight for their rights as a junior partner.

Hey, I am just describing how it is. Though, and that is anecdotal, my LGTB friends are all more concerned about how the society as a whole reacts to them.

We are in this weird situation where the government doesn't push for change, but it doesn't push to make it worse either, while society as w hole pushes against said government for change.

Remember the last time we went "Oh it's intolerant but overall irrelevant. Just focus on the big picture?"

Because that is how we got the A fucking D.

I am not quite sure how a dumb joke from AKK and the fact that the CDU is and always has been conservative, can be equated to the rapid radicalization of a right-oriented party that deliberately pandered to a reactionary audience through dogwhistles and more.

I mean, don't get me wrong, AKK is not what I consider progressive. But she is not harcore-conservative/american hypocrite-conservative, so I am not sure how this is such an outrage.

It was a shitty joke. She is not a progressive poltician. We know that now. But please do not overblow or slippery-slope this.

CDU is not AFD and it is highly unlikely it will happen in any reasonable timeframe.

No, I don't. My position towards the Af D was from day one: It isn't far-right yet, but it in danger of being hijacked from the far right.

Now, the CDU, I am currently a little bit worried that they might backslide out of fear to lose their more conservative voters, but I also know that if they backslide too much, they will be punished by the moderate voters, which have after all the pick between three other parties and not just one which is unelectable for everyone who paid attention to how the Third Reich came to be.

Look, I get it. I really do. How do you think I feel when I listening to the CDU (and especially the CSU) not understanding that it is high time to protect women and mothers more instead of acting as if the "traditional" family is still a thing. There are a LOT of issues which need to get addressed there, things which actively ensure that females are way, way more at risk to fall into poverty than anyone else.

But let's not act as of AKK conservative point of view is in any way unusual for the CDU and as if that will suddenly lead to, I don't know, gays being hunted through the streets of Germany.

Edited by Swanpride on Mar 5th 2019 at 3:02:14 AM

The party leader of the CDU is not socially progressive on all issues, how shocking. Next thing you'll tell me that Sahra Wagenknecht is a socialist... .

lol.

Thing is, while I have little sympathy for people who are so entrenched in some sort of nostalgic past that they resent every change, I think that for a change to stick, you need to put the work in. You can't just dictate if from the top. Hence you always need a "conservative" party which speaks up for those who are worried about how change will affect them, even if those worries are often idiotic. What you don't need though it a conservative party which is regressive. Which is why I consider the CSU a problem, but not the CDU.

...Yeah...I...don't know if I agree with that. See, there's currently been a sort of wave of targeted Transphobia in the press recently (especially the British press), all justified by "people's valid concerns". And I'm pretty sure most LGBTQ folk will agree with the sentiment that it would be a lot better (not perfect, but better) in the Governments helped us instead of being passively or actively hostile.

Rapid change is possible. We've seen the USA improve itself a lot on this front over the Obama administration, for instance. You don't need Conservatives actively stalling and scaremongering and so forth. Not in America, and likely not in Germany.

Now, I don't live in Germany, so this likely will not affect me too much. But it will likely affect other Trans and Non-binary people, and other LGBTQ folk besides.

td;dr CDU blocking LGBTQ rights is also a problem, just maybe not in exactly the same way.

I always keep hearing about how much more Liberal German Conservativism is from both sides of the Atlantic, so when I hear that I tend to expect them to actually put in an effort.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Mar 5th 2019 at 12:31:08 PM

And said changes (e.g. the right for trans people to serve in the army) are now under threat because of the conservative backlash.

For what it is worth, AKK has (to my knowledge) never said that she would work on rolling back the (already substantial) rights given to LBGT people in the last few years. So comparing the C Du to the Republicans seems very overblown to me.

There's still a noticeable difference between Merkel - who, while personally not being in favour of same-sex marriage, put country over personal beliefs and allowed for a parliament vote on it free of faction constraints - and AKK.

Merkel pulled some voters who normally wouldn't vote for CDU by pulling the party more towards the centre - some people voted CDU last time because ensuring Merkel would stay chancellor was much more preferable to uncertainty, especially with the AfD lurking about.

If AKK pulls the party further right again - and the SPD gets their shit together (though people are wary of Nahles, I found) - the CDU might not be the leading party in the next government.

That is not, in fact, a point in Conservativism's favor. I don't know why you're making it like it is, but on the scale of "is Conservativism important" citing it trying to fight LGBTQ rights does not seem to be the one you should be making.

Hell, you're making my point for me.

And I didn't compare them explicitly to the Republicans.

Edited by AzurePaladin on Mar 5th 2019 at 3:04:23 PM

We shall see. AKK might also appeal to voters who have been alienated by Merkel's policies, and so far - aside from her stance on AKK - there has been no noticeable shift to the right under her.

I never said that this would be an advantage of conservatism, it is in fact one of its' aspects I strongly disagree with. I just don't view AKK's stance on it important enough to reconsider voting for the CDU, and this won't change unless she really insists on taking already granted rights away (e.g. being allowed to classify yourself as a third gender).