German Politics Thread

Legacies are a crapshoot. Ultimately nobody can really control how they are remembered. They can try, but it usually doesn't work.

There is little desire in Germany for higher military spending. I would say that there are two groups: One which is strictly against it out of principle because they (quite rightly) fear that if there is a strong army the politicians will eventually use it and really nobody in Germany wants to follow the example of the US and the UK when it comes to global intervention.

And the other group which acknowledges that due to the current political climate it is necessary for Germany to maintain a basic level of defence, but thinks that before more money is pumped into the Bundeswehr, first it has to be ensured that the money will be used widely. And not by setting Germany on fire.

I fall mostly in the second group, btw. I also happen to think that those 5% are nonsensical number for Germany, simply because Germany punches so far above its seize regarding the GDP. For a country which doesn't have nuclear weapons and will never have nuclear weapons, which doesn't really have a high number of veterans it has to take care of and has no intention whatsoever to get involved in conflicts around the world, it really makes no sense to spend that much on defence.

I assume you mean 2%. 5% of GDP would make Germany the second largest military spender as a percentage of GDP, just trailing behind Saudi Arabia.

Given the stories coming out of the MOD right now, more spending just means more 'Outside Advisors'.

There is some real BS going on in there, apparently.

Edited by 3of4 on Oct 31st 2018 at 12:53:08 PM

The German military shouldn’t be getting more money until it can prove it can do the right thing with the money it’s already got. As it is, even if the budget was increased that money would still be squandered. Before a spending increase it would be a good idea to try to cut out some of the dysfunction. Bringing in outside advisors at the highest levels might not be a bad idea, retraining at home would be good too.

As a main player in NATO and a close ally of the US Germany is going to be involved in overseas military operations. They can’t just say they don’t feel like doing it and maintain credibility.

Edited by archonspeaks on Oct 31st 2018 at 4:56:17 AM

The problem so far has been that the 'advisors' the MOD has hired have largely been out of nepotism, so the idea that the present administration can be trusted to actually make something of the Bundeswehr's dysfunction is questionable, to say the least.

And the question would be where to find those advisors. The French, maybe?

Edited by math792d on Oct 31st 2018 at 2:28:51 PM

Formally requesting assistance through NATO might not be a bad idea.

The German arms industry could also use some help, that would go a long way towards improving their situation. Incompetence on the part of German defense contractors has been a serious issue, and not just for Germany.

Frankly, the Americans. They do have the best military in the world after all. But where to find an American advisor who would NOT above all push for Germany buying weapons from US companies (bad idea) and who gets the German "military is for self-defence and humanitarian operations" mind-set? Even in France you would be hard pressed to find someone who "gets" this.

It is a little bit odd, Germany does such a great job training up police officers, why it is so difficult to put together a functioning military?

And yes, I meant 2%. For the record, if you don't look at percentage but at overall money spend, 2% would mean that Germany would spend more than any other European country. I think with a percentage like this we are talking about around 75 billion US dollar. Granted, that is still way less than the 681 Billion the US is currently spending, but I think we can all agree that for one, the US is overdoing it and two, that the US has a lot of military related costs Germany doesn't have (As I already pointed out, Germany has no nuclear weapons and way lets Vets it needs to look out for, but, and correct me if I am wrong there, I am pretty sure that the space program is part of the US military spending).

Edited by Swanpride on Oct 31st 2018 at 7:31:56 AM

I have to admit, a Germany with a more powerful army would make me feel more comfortable. Europe can't keep relying on the US alliance for defence when it's becoming more and more evident that a large fraction of the US's ruling class is hostile to its interests.

It makes me uncomfortable because the issue with Germany was always that we are too big to ignore but also not big enough to not be a huge temptation. Too many weapons and one of two things will happen: Either the power balance in Europe shifts too much in Germany's favour (which is pretty much the opposite goal of the EU), or someone will get so nervous that Germany gets targeted. We are already more than enough under attack as it is.

Now that's A Rare Sentence. :/

Edited by DrunkenNordmann on Oct 31st 2018 at 3:35:35 PM

Well, we are currently in an interesting time in this world. I mean who would have expected that Germany is going to become (some sort of) leader of Europe not with military, but simply for being more or less one of the more rational nations?

x5 Germany is already heavily engaged with the US arms industry, so I don’t really think it would hurt if they bought more from them. It might even take some pressure of domestic companies so they could get their affairs in order. (looking at you, HK)

At some point, like I said above, Germany is going to have to get with the program when it comes to working with NATO. They’re starting to lean this way as they’re expanding their engagements in the Middle East and Africa, but they could be doing more.

Edited by archonspeaks on Oct 31st 2018 at 7:48:03 AM

Why? I'd far sooner trust today's Germany to haldle military power responsibly than I would the USA or Russia. When the USA is so blatantly abandoning the values that western co-operation was founded on, Europe can't act like it can continue to rely on the USA armed forces as a cornerstone of its defence plans forever.

Edited by DrDougsh on Oct 31st 2018 at 7:42:01 AM

It would be better if they build a system to source from within the EU. This way they could introduce common standards to the military of all EU countries and in order to do this, a good method is to ensure that all of them get a piece of the ordering cake so to speak. Plus, wielding a weapon doesn't really make you powerful, being the one who builds it does.

Because some countries have a longer memory than you have. It is too early.

Edited by Swanpride on Oct 31st 2018 at 7:46:31 AM

That’s a good long-term goal, but they’re basically starting from scratch. And even if they do build up domestic industry they’re going to be tied to US products anyways, as the US is the only western country capable at all of producing high-end gear like stealth fighters.

Well, to give you a simple answer, it's because Nazi and all the baggage that come with it. It's still too soon.

Bah. Germany can't let WWII define its future forever. At this point, appeals to Nazism comes more off as a way to dodge responsibility.

Same with Japan, really. When situated right next to a well-armed, hostile country, it's irrational to expect these countries to place all of their faith in a fickle ally instead of being able to defend themselves on their own.

Except with Japan you have war crime deniers in charge.

Japan is more complicated, though. Considering that unlike Germany, Japan have not break free from its Imperial Japan past and still let that sort of define its future. And I'm not just talking about some fringe ultra-nationalist organization here. The Japanese government itself still has problem dealing with the past.

It has been done before and we should continue in the direction.

Oh, yeah, and Japan is sooooo popular in its neighbourhood, right? Yeah, not really. Plus, it has the advantage to be an island on the edge of the globe and not a big state smack in the middle of Europe.

Hell, the main reason why Japan isn't seen very, very differently in the West is because the US had an interest to shift the attention away from what they did during WWII, plus, the while getting nuked thing earned them some sympathies. Doesn't change that for a lot of Chinese, Japanese are devils and Nazis aren't necessarily all that bad.

It hasn't even been a century yet. There are a lot of open wounds still festering.

Edited by Swanpride on Oct 31st 2018 at 8:36:47 AM

The US is not a good place to hire advisers if you care about bang for the buck. The US has an effective army, but that is not because their procurement process is efficient, it is because they are willing to spend money like water. France is, near as I can tell, fairly good at getting value for money, as such things go.

Germany has already put more emphasis on developing weapon systems together with other European allies. Case in point, France and Germany intent to develop a new tank and a successor for the Eurofighter.

Expecting Europe to have an arms industry as robust or more than what the US has in the near future simply isn’t realistic, and there’s really no reason to think Europe would benefit from it. The arms industries of Europe and the US are already intimately linked, and it’s in everyone’s best interests to keep them that way.

As much as US procurement is a mess, it’s still in better shape than the procurement systems of many European countries. Spain, Germany, even the UK all have procurement processes bordering on total dysfunction.

The Eurofighter successor is all but dead in the water with the F-35 reaching maturity.

Edited by archonspeaks on Oct 31st 2018 at 8:49:08 AM

I'd trust Germany with a stronger military more easily than Japan, even though I'd be in the path of a German invasion if it happened (as historical precedent suggests). But my grandparents' generation still remembers the Nazi occupation (it happened during their childhood), so they might have a different opinion on the subject.