Jim Sterling (The Jimquisition)

I mean EA is also pretty huge.

It just didn't catch on. Bioware games do well, but the studio had no experience with this kind of game, refused to learn from the competition and produced a game that at best was average. This meant that the fanbase Bioware had accrued over the years was alienated and the game didn't really have enough going for it to win them and the larger audience over.

Is Destiny still a thing?

Destiny 2 seems to be doing just fine from what I can tell.

DA 4 was apparently described as "Anthem with dragons".

The "problem" with these microtransaction-fueled live-service games is that many of them work. They deliver tons of revenue to the companies publishing them. Therefore, they'll continue to be made no matter what developers want. It's the law of the jungle.

If only more of those were like Warframe.

...I miss Bioware. Like, old Bioware. Baldur's Gate, KOTOR, Dragon Age Origins, Mass Effect Bioware. The guys that are no longer in the company but told some of the best stories and made them one of the best things ever. That Bioware was my favorite studio for the longest time.

Now all I have is the concern that the last Dragon Age is going to be some live service bullshit that'll close the franchise with a bad taste.

Edited by TheLovecraftian on Oct 21st 2019 at 2:14:03 PM

x3 - Like any fad, it works until it doesn’t. Hopefully they reach the point where they don’t work sooner rather than later.

There’s a thought. People nostalgic over free to play games.

I am so glad a time travel machine doesn't exist. Well, there'd be many scientific issues, mindfuckery trying to make sense of everything and more.

That and if these companies could use it... you better believe they'd pour their ideas and schemes into the past and rewrite the history so this garbage was always there, from beginning, as is.

Actually they'd hardly stop at there, they could go further.

This sort of bullshit had to wait for online-only games to be ubiquitous enough and accessible enough that they would support all the microtransactions. Mobile games did it first, since a phone is always online by definition.

It's why everyone should damn well hope the Google Stadia becomes a commercial flop. If device like it become common, you won't like what the E As and Activision of the Worlds do with it gaming-wise.

Maybe I'm just being naive, but to me, the Stadia seems destined for failure. There's virtually no hype surrounding it — at least, none that I've seen — and people have already pointed out several fundamental flaws in it (and game streaming in general).

Plus, it's by Google, who's just going to abandon it after a year or two.

Frankly, Inquisition was already halfway there with its huge, empty maps and fetch quests, and that was just trying to ape Skyrim. Mass Effect: Andromeda had the same problem, for that matter. Anyone holding out hope that Dragon Age 4 won't be a half-assed attempt at copying the popular trends of today should probably temper their expectations.

Bioware has a weird history, in that much like Bethesda, they've been lazily slapping together broken-ass janky games since at least as far back as my jumping on point, the original Mass Effect. But where players forgave Bethesda because of the modding tools that always came packaged with the games, we forgave Bioware because of the writing. We happily trudged through hours and hours of shitty gameplay just to get to the next conversation scene.

Dragon Age 2 was the point where the Bioware illusion wore off, because the lazy and janky gameplay was too lazy and janky. Bioware literally copy/pasting a small handful of maps for every dungeon was just too visible. And then something weird happened.

I don't really follow all the internal company politics news about creators leaving and writers changing companies and designers getting fired and whatever, so I don't know if there was an actual change in leadership after Dragon Age 2. I just know what I saw in the games, and what I saw was that Dragon Age 2 utterly shattered Bioware's confidence in their own brand. From that point forward, every game felt like Bioware was issuing a formal apology for making Bioware games.

• Mass Effect 3: It's a Bioware game, I'm sorry, I know you hate those, BUT IT'S ALSO HALO. YOU LIKE HALO, RIGHT?
• Dragon Age: Inquisition: It's a Bioware game, I'm sorry, I know you hate those, BUT IT'S ALSO SKYRIM. YOU LIKE SKYRIM, RIGHT?
• Mass Effect: Andromeda: Aha! You DO like Skyrim! Thank you for noticing us, senpai. Here, we made a Mass Effect game, BUT THIS ONE'S ALSO SKYRIM!!!
• Anthem: Okay, no-go, back to the drawing board. It's a Bioware game, I'm sorry, I know you hate those, BUT IT'S ALSO DESTINY. YOU LIKE DESTINY, RIGHT?

Dragon Age 2 broke Bioware. The writing remains on-par with the classic games peopled loved while the game design is as lazy and half-assed as ever, but ever since then, they've also added desperate thinly-veiled trend-chasing to their list of bad ideas. And it's been downhill ever since.

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 21st 2019 at 12:12:33 PM

I don't really see how ME 3 is Halo (any more than ME 2 is)? I guess the multiplayer? But if having a multiplayer makes you Halo....

It's probably less that they were making apologies, and more just EA's gradual corporate influence.

Mind you the work culture at Bioware always had issues. Way too much "everything will be ok in the end because we'll crunch. Bioware magic!". I do think the leadership changed sometime around after Mass effect 3, and whatever their leadership was when they made anthem they weren't very good at their jobs. Development was completely aimless for years.

I never played any of the Dragon Age games, but I see this complaint about DA2 thrown around a lot, and I just have to wonder if these same people ever played the original Mass Effect, 'cause they did the exact same thing in that game and nobody seemed to notice.

Edited by Primis on Oct 21st 2019 at 11:19:55 AM

Mass effect saved that mostly for side quest areas. DA 2 has multiple main quest taking place in the same series of locales. And then you add these areas being reused for other side quests or identical areas. DA 2 is far more blatant about it than ME 1 was.

Edited by Ghilz on Oct 21st 2019 at 2:22:46 PM

Copy-pasted environments are hardly unique to Bethesda and/or Bioware. It's not always laziness; sometimes you want to spend your effort on other things than making every dungeon distinct. That said, I remember recently reading an excerpt from a book on the development of WoW, wherein one of the designers reminisced that he wanted to make the world mini-dungeons distinct, since they were all going to be copy-pastes. He got ridiculed for the waste of time until he went off and did it on his own. Then they were so amazed that they put them in.

Any project, no matter how grand in scope, has finite resources and choices must be made where to allocate them. My problem with Bethesda (I haven't played any of the ME or DA games) is that they spend far too few of those resources on quality control and count on modders to patch their games after release. That's inexcusable.

Edited by Fighteer on Oct 21st 2019 at 2:28:45 PM

People didn't notice in Mass Effect because most of the copy/pasted maps were bunkers, military bases, etc. Things one might reasonably expect to be standardized and uniform across the galaxy, so the copy/pasting of maps immersed well enough into the environment.

When Dragon Age 2 did it, it was cave systems and back alley slums. Places you'd expect some variety, which made the laziness more apparant. "Wow, this secret network of tunnels beneath the city sure does look EXACTLY LIKE the dragon lair in the mountains AND the secret bandit lair hidden in the forest...."

Edited by TobiasDrake on Oct 21st 2019 at 12:31:41 PM

Ah, didn't realize it was main quest locations that were copy-pasted. Yeah, that's much worse.

In addition to the uniformity of Mass Effect's copy/paste maps, I think it also helped that they were fairly minimalist.

The reused maps in Dragon Age 2 were complex and full of twists and turns and splitting routes. Which made it all the more apparent the second or third time you're taking those same twists, turns, and splitting routes.

People always complain about Dragon Age 2's maps, myself included, but one still had to admit the story was really well written there. It was after Mass Effect 3 that they really started breaking down with that whole ending debacle, and then Dragon Age Inquisition really went downhill with a generic plot and only half-decent characters.

Uh, sorry but I disagree with that. The story was, generously, the best Bioware ever did at deviating from their formula. The execution left a lot to be desired in my view, from forcing you to do missions even if you have 50 gold already to the entirety of Act 3 being a string of contrivance. I get liking this plot, but I'm not impressed with it.

Honestly, Jim talking about how Bioware needs to nail Dragon Age 4 just makes me think Bioware's already done for.

Firstly I really doubt that Bioware can get its shit together in time. There's been too big a human cost, they'd need such a massive change in workplace culture and leadership that would take way too long for them to be in a respectable state. They're already working on DA 4 presumably, there's not enough time.

Secondly, EA wants everything to be "live services" now, even if it's to the detriment of what is best for the individual game. DA 4 is probably already a Gaa S nightmare to the detriment of what Bioware fans actually want.

Basically I wouldn't get your hopes up. It's a wonder that Bioware even lasted all this time.

I have a lot of mixed feelings about DA 2. The party members are complex and nuanced and clash with one another brilliantly... But I also find all of them insufferable because of it. Varric is the only one that's any fun. All the other ones are various shades of Single-Issue Wonk whose absolute refusal to move, moderate or change from whatever extreme viewpoint their champion makes them completely unappealing.

And like Very Melon said, the plot is written with a specific status quo in mind. That my PC will drop everything to go help a party member that's been nothing but hostile and a liability because they came and ask me for help. Sure I'll go with this asshole whose asking for my assistance, and not, ya know, tell him to get the fuck out of my house.

Similarly much of plot revolves around the player being invested in Kirkwall, a shithole if there ever was one. Something even the following game will gladly point out.

Edited by Ghilz on Oct 21st 2019 at 6:28:16 AM