Disney

I'll grant you that the Siamese cats are racist, since (with how they keep referring to themselves as Siamese) the connection is clearly being drawn between them and people from Siam. But with the crows in Dumbo, while they act and talk the same way that minstrel shows would portray black people, the crows themselves are not of African origin. The harmful thing about stereotypes is that they make people think that Real Life members of the stereotyped group are like their portrayals in fiction; if those stereotypical behaviors are applied to someone outside the traditionally stereotyped group, then that problem disappears.

As does "I Wanna Be Like You" and "When I See An Elephant Fly". If they don't want stereotypes to be endorsed they shouldn't have given them all the best songs.

edited 18th Dec '11 6:58:04 PM by Psi001

My personal favourite Disney films:

• The Lion King: Kind of obvious, but it's still really good.
• The Hunchback Of Notre Dame: A really good movie. I think it didn't do sell well because it was (for the most part) so dark and serious, and while Disney usually manages to mix lighthearted and serious moods for their movies, they didn't do it so well with Hunchback.
• Aladdin
• Treasure Planet: The songs are particularly good.
• The Black Cauldron: I don't quite know why, but I think this movie is really cool for some reason.
• The Princess And The Frog
• Mulan

@ Raven: no they're probably intended to be black. In the old days "Crow" was a derogatory term for a black person, and the fact one of them is named Jim, referring to Jim Crow laws(which were segregation laws). Subtle isn't it?

What's your favorite Disney songs? That's pretty tough for me...Be Prepared, Hellfire, We Are Man, Friends on The Other Side, Colors of the wind, I'm Still Here, Prince Ali, Zira's Lullaby...ah hope I'm not forgetting any. GASTON'S theme. Of course.

edited 18th Dec '11 8:24:31 PM by VertigoHigh

Mulan I love her she is the most BadAss disney female better than any disney princess imo with the possible expeption of Rapunzel.

edited 18th Dec '11 10:20:06 PM by FallenLegend

Anything from TNMBC, James, Pooh and Pat F. Other than that: Higgitus Figgitus, Steamboat Willie Theme, You've Got A Friend In Me, Down To Earth, Merrily On The Road To Nowhere In Particular, Headless Horseman Song. There more but I can't think of them right now.

But as long as they're not actually black and don't have any real resemblances to black people, then the only people who'll make the connection are the people thinking about the stereotype, and if you're processing a stereotype on such an intellectual level it's not going to warp your perceptions of reality.

^ The problem with that way of thinking is that the crows are a pretty clear minstrel-esque archetype, and their personalities and antics were all indicative of iconic gags about African Americans at the time period.

The fact that they're crows is hardly the only thing that makes them stereotypes, I assure you.

edited 19th Dec '11 12:45:03 AM by KnownUnknown

But since the crows are not black people, them acting like minstrel show characters isn't going to create an association in the audience's mind between black people and that sort of behavior.

Yes. Yes it is. That's the point of giving those gags in the first place.

It's how symbolism and association works.

If it didn't, they wouldn't be considered the iconic Disney stereotypes in the first place. Obviously, the association stuck with people.

But it's working in reverse here. People don't see the crows in Dumbo and think (on a conscious or subconscious level) "These crows represent black people, therefore their behavior is indicative of how black people behave." Instead, because they've been exposed to racial stereotypes elsewhere, audiences go, "These crows act the way black people are usually shown to act, so they must represent black people."

Dumbo certainly takes advantage of the fact that its viewers will have absorbed racist stereotypes, but since they don't draw an explicit connection between the crows and black people, they are not actually reinforcing those stereotypes. If someone with no knowledge of the early 20th century's stereotypes concerning black people were to watch Dumbo, they'd have no reason associate the crows with any Real Life racial group.

Again, if the way you believe people receive it were true, it wouldn't be considered the most iconic example of Disney's stereotyping. It's not like we're just a group of random guys who randomly thought it might be the case, there's actually a decades long controversy around it.

Perhaps instead of "audiences" you're just talking about yourself.

Plus, what, you're argument is "just because the characteristics of the crows are considered racial stereotypes in other media, especially given the time period, people are assuming the fact that the crows here exhibit the exact same characteristics means they're also stereotypes?" Are you serious?

It's either that or "modern day audiences don't see them as stereotypes, ergo regardless of if they were originally intended as stereotypical they can't be criticized and/or acknowledged for it." Which is just as... off.

edited 19th Dec '11 12:23:51 PM by KnownUnknown

Look, why are racial stereotypes a bad thing? Because, if members of a certain race are constantly shown behaving a certain way in media, audiences will (consciously or subconsciously) come to associate that racial group with that sort of behavior, until they start expecting Real Life members of the race to behave that way. But, in the case of the Dumbo crows, I don't think that's a risk.

Do they act like stereotypical black people? Yes. But those stereotyped actions are the only way they're associated with black people. They're never referred to as being black people, they don't look like black people, their names aren't ones primarily found among black people, and they're never stated to be of African descent like black people. So how can seeing the crows affect a person's view of black people?

It's like with Pavlov's dogs. They were given food everytime a bell was rung, so they came to associate the sound of ringing bells with mealtimes. What the Dumbo crows are doing is like ringing the bell without giving the dogs any food. The dogs will behave as conditioned and think "food" when they hear the bell, and audiences will behave as conditioned and think "black people" when they see minstrel show style antics. However, hearing a bell or seeing minstrel show humor do not, in-and-of-themselves, create or reinforce any mental conditioning. It's only when the bell is paired with food or the minstrelry is paired with black people that an association is formed.

Guise...

True enough; as a child, I was completely unfamiliar with notions of dialect and the "black housemaid" stereotype, and so when I encountered both in the guise of the housemaid character in those old Tom and Jerry shorts, while I figured she was black (you could see her hands, but not her face) and she talked funny (hey, it was a cartoon; lots of folks talk funny in cartoons) I assumed she was the owner of the house. I realize now, of course, that she was rather offensively stereotyped (to the point that WB re-recorded her dialogue tracks for those old cartoons, which is probably for the best, really), but I wonder if anyone else had a similar reaction...

Having watched this year The Lion King 3D in theaters, Snow White And The Seven Dwarfs on You Tube in HD, and The Rescuers Down Under on VHS, I have gained new respect for these movies that I didn't have long ago.

That said, here are my top ten twelve-ish favorites, in no particular order:

• Aladdin: The only Disney franchise with sequels that didn't disappoint at one point or another, though I'll admit I lost interest in the first movie for some time, probably due to not getting most of the Genie's references.
• The Rescuers: It probably says something that I'm devoted to collecting as many different covers for this movie as possible. Also, even though I didn't enjoy the Down Under sequel usually, both movies had some of the BEST climaxes I've seen in Disney films.
• Meet The Robinsons: Easily my favorite CGI Disney movie ever. It also had the most surprising plot twists.
• Gargoyles: The Heroes Awaken: Outstanding movie, especially for one that was both DTV and a pilot for a TV show. If they give it a proper HD treatment, I'd probably pay to go see it in theaters.
• Both Cinderella III and The Lion King 1 1/2 are tied for funniest Disney movies, but they also have surprisingly good animation and story compared to most other Disney DTV fare. The music could be better, but they were decent.
• The Black Cauldron: I have no idea why this is in my favorites.
• Ratatouille: I lied when I said that Meet the Robinsons was my favorite CGI Disney movie. This one's tied for that role. Probably not Pixar's most innovative movie, but it definitely was creative.
• The Hunchback Of Notre Dame: What can I say about this movie that hasn't already been said? For me, it ranks slightly above TheLittleMermaid, Mulan, and The Princess And The Frog (probably in that order)
• Beauty And TheBeast: Wins over Hunchback if only because Belle is the most awesome Disney princess alongside Jasmine.
• The Great Mouse Detective: Vincent Price as one of Disney's best villains and the adorable Olivia-Toby interaction that makes me fall prey to Cuteness Proximity... not to mention that climax!
• The Incredibles
• The Many Adventures Of Winnie The Pooh: The last, but not least, of my favorite Disney franchises.

I can also say that all of the above have excellent animation, music, and casts of both voices and characters. Close contenders not even slightly mentioned above:

• The live action version of Alice in Wonderland
• Brother Bear
• The Emperor's New Groove
• Lilo & Stitch
• Atlantis: The Lost Empire
• Kim Possible
• Bolt
• The Nightmare Before Christmas
• Most of Pixar's movies

Least favorite:

• The Thief and the Cobbler (Miramax): It's such a shame that Roy (him or someone else?) left the much better restoration incomplete when he left the company.

edited 21st Dec '11 9:56:10 PM by Enzeru

Re: Cobbler, did you check out the "Re-Cobbled" version? It's a fan project that sought to finish the film as originally intended.

I have, and I love it, as well as the "Am I Feeling Love?" song (which could use some tweaking), but I wanna see what Roy had restored. It's like that feeling you get when you were that close to seeing a Disney movie that you can't see.

In my top 10 currently:

10. Aladdin 9. Bambi 8. The Aristocats 7. The Great Mouse Detective (Charming, likeable) 6. The Emperor's New Groove (How can you not like this movie, might be the funniest of the whole canon) 5. Pinocchio 4. Fantasia 3. Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs 2. Alice in Wonderland 1. Lilo & Stitch (first film I saw in cinema, loveable, great animation, funny) Least favourites? Well I might want to dislike the Black Cauldron. It has good animation though. Oliver & Company I don't dislike but it's the lowest (or second lowest) in my opinion. Although no one's mentioned Hot R or Chicken Little yet. I actually liked the former (has a style, fast paced, humor that worked) and thought the latter was alright. Man the hate for it though.

I have a particular thing for the Gary Trousdale/Kirk Wise-directed films, those being Beauty and the Beast, The Hunchback of Notre Dame, and Atlantis: The Lost Empire. The first two broke many old traditions for Disney movies and ended up setting the standard for ones to come. In the case of Bat B, the character that looks like an old-fashioned Disney Prince is the chauvinistic villain despised by the princess, with paved the way for villains like Hans, and Ho ND made had one of the most sympathetic protagonists of them all, played with the love interest trope, and had a villain that was simultaneously scary and pitiable thanks to the film's themes. Perhaps if people were more open to accepting a non-musical and acton-centric Disney animated film in the early 2000s like they are now (Meet The Robinsons, Bolt, Wreck-It Ralph, Big Hero 6, probably Zootopia), At LE could've spawned a stronger franchise and not be relegated to only being seen by digging through Netflix.

Take the discussion to the general Disney/Pixar thread.