A thread to discuss electric vehicles and hybrid technology. No politics, please.
Technology, commercial aspects and marketing are all on-topic.
- Companies (e.g. Tesla Inc.) are only on-topic when discussing their electric vehicle products and research, not their wider activities. The exception is when those wider activities directly impact (or are impacted by) their other business areas - e.g. if electric vehicle development is cut back due to losses in another part of the business.
- Technology that's not directly related to electric vehicles (e.g. general battery research) is off-topic unless you're discussing how it might be used for vehicles.
- If we're talking about individuals here, that should only be because they've said or done something directly relevant to the topic. Specifically, posts about Tesla do not automatically need to mention Elon Musk. And Musk's views, politics and personal life are firmly off-topic unless you can somehow show that they're relevant to electric cars.
Also, posting this late, so sorry for any misspellings I might have left in there.
(Mod edited to replace original post)
Edited by Mrph1 on Mar 29th 2024 at 4:14:39 PM
Fast charging infrastructure isn’t common in a lot of places yet, if I recall?
I highlighted that quote to point out that for applications where you’re using the vehicle for a few hours of local driving on a regular schedule, even current low-end EVs are a perfect fit. To me, that seems like a good angle to approach mass adoption in the short term.
They should have sent a poet.
Lost in Space
It's spreading, of course, but there are still significant variations between suppliers. Tesla has the best infrastructure by far, but it's only for Tesla vehicles (although there are constant rumors of licensing deals). Other suppliers have a wide variety of pricing models and capabilities.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
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If you know you only need about 70 miles a day and not doing pursuit situations, why pay more?
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Well, are we talking about just administrative vehicles or patrol/pursuit cars? Because the latter could definitely take advantage of higher base range. A 300 mile EV, for example, should last a full day, maybe even two shifts, before being parked for overnight charging.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Figure of Hourai
Well, given that the force knows these cars are only being used for an average of 70 miles a day with a 180 mile range (and the UK being on the whole quite small—Gloucestershire's probably about 80 miles across at most) and most of their use is probably answering call-outs rather than anything else... it's fine?
Bear in mind that the way the police force is structured, road policing units
are pretty distinct. They would be the ones with a need for high speed and long range.
Like, I think the standard police car for most of the UK is some variation on a Vauxhall Astra (or at least was last time I checked), whilst the actual road units tend to go for an Impreza or something. Shows a bit of a difference in needs, there. ![[lol]](https://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/lol2v12_4863.png "[lol]"){kind=small}
Edited by RainehDaze on Mar 20th 2020 at 4:29:25 PM
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Teslarati: Tesla Model Y owner crushes advertised 0-60 mph time in real-world test
This is anecdotal, of course, but Tesla advertises the Model Y Performance with a 3.5 second 0-60 time, and this user clocked an average 3.37 seconds, with a minimum 3.30. This places the car 2-3 seconds ahead of its nearest competitors in the luxury CUV space.
I'll never have one of these, most likely. If I can afford a Tesla at any time in the future, it'll be a Model 3, but maybe I can convince my wife...
Edited by Fighteer on Mar 21st 2020 at 11:23:32 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
Teslarati: GM and Ford’s EV production plans for the US have leaked, and they are a joke
, the two biggest American automakers will be making 5 million petrol-powered SUVs and pickup trucks in 2026, and only 320,000 electric vehicles. That's just about 5% of Ford and GM's combined vehicle production in North America, and less than Tesla's output in 2019 from its one factory in Fremont, CA.
Putting it mildly, a production target of 320,000 electric vehicles in 2026 is a joke. Both companies, after all, have been insisting that they are all-in on an electric car push. Earlier this month, GM CEO Mary Barra announced a $20 billion project to bring a million EVs to market by the middle of the 2020s, though most of these vehicles will be sold in China. Ford is the same, with Executive Chairman Bill Ford stating that the company is "all-in" on an electric car push.
If GM and Ford’s production plans for North America are any indication, it appears that a lot of these optimistic EV-centric statements may be just that: statements, and nothing more. According to data from AutoForecast Solutions, GM and Ford’s North American production of SUV models will outpace traditional cars by over 8:1 in 2026. Among these SUVs, 93% will be petrol-powered.
Yeah, so much for their vaunted commitment. GM and Ford seem to be effectively ceding the U.S. EV market to Tesla for the next five to ten years.
Edited by Fighteer on Mar 26th 2020 at 4:36:46 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
Teslarati: Volkswagen's software issues with the ID.3 are worse than reported: 'It is an absolute disaster'
Original reporting on this comes from a German publication, sueddeutsche.de. Volkswagen is apparently continuing to have serious problems with the software on its ID.3 and is contemplating releasing a "toned down" version of the vehicle this summer. VW is suffering primarily from a "lack of qualified personnel", plus key departures from its IT team. Meanwhile, the company is reportedly considering partnering with Daimler to develop "an operating system for cars".
Tesla's software platform is a key advantage that it holds over other EV manufacturers. Teslarati notes in its article that Tesla uses a central control unit for its cars rather than a set of distributed systems, making the task of programming it much easier. Volkswagen, much hyped as its top potential competitor, seems to be constantly tripping over its own deficiencies as it tries to catch up.
I want to stress that I am not posting this to gloat, although I am enjoying some schadenfreude towards the people who keep breathlessly declaring the next "Tesla killer". I want electric vehicles to completely replace internal combustion vehicles as soon as possible, and for that to happen, the major OEMs have to get on board. These failures by Ford, GM, and now VW keep pushing the timeline back.
Edited by Fighteer on Mar 28th 2020 at 11:26:50 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Who Am I?
It's the difference between companies for whom EV's are a divergence from what they mostly sell, and a smaller company for whom EV's are all they sell. Traditionally, the next step would be for Tesla to license out it's OS, but I dont know if Musk is open to that.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
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Tesla has released its Q1 2020 auto production and preliminary sales figures. Financials will follow later, of course. It's a record-breaking quarter in many ways, with almost 103K vehicles produced and over 88K sold, representing 40% growth year over year. Some were expecting modified yearly guidance due to coronavirus related shutdowns, but Tesla has not provided any information about that yet. We'll probably see a more serious impact in Q2 as far as the U.S. is concerned, although Giga Shanghai is operating at full capacity and should make up some of that gap.
Teslarati article, Tesla IR letter
Edited by Fighteer on Apr 3rd 2020 at 9:08:01 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
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Teslarati: Elon Musk has hinted at Tesla Battery and Powertrain Investor Day occurring now in May instead of April, no doubt due to the current pandemic-induced uncertainty.
Lost in Space
Teslarati: Tesla Giga Nevada set to reopen on May 4 with new safety measures
It joins Tesla's other plants in reopening for production, with new strict safety measures including temperature checks at entryways, mandatory masks and gloves, and social distancing measures.
CleanTechnica joins many other outlets in reporting that Fisker has revealed the Force E pack for its Ocean electric SUV. This will be an "extreme off-road" package including a 300 hp AWD powertrain, heavy-duty suspension, giant tires, and more. There is no word on price.
Fisker seems to be positioning the Force E package to compete against Tesla's Cybertruck. The Ocean is scheduled to go on the market in 2021, ramping up to full production in 2022, just as the Cybertruck is expected to begin sales.
Anyone else have EV news to post? It's been really slow with most things shut down.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
InsideEVs: Polestar 3 Tesla Model X Rival Electric SUV Could Debut In 2022
Ugh, InsideEVs really needs to stop buying into the Tesla rivalry thing. Maybe it's doing it for the views, in which case I'll give it a golf clap. It is not necessary to tout every new electric vehicle as a "Tesla rival", but I guess that's the reality we live in. When someone has 75% of the global market share (outside China) of a particular class of good, everything is going to be compared to it. However, this is missing the point that electric vehicles should be competing with internal combustion vehicles, not each other.
Anyway, Polestar has revealed information on a new electric SUV (tentatively dubbed "Polestar 3") based on the design of the Polestar Precept and using a Volvo XC90 platform. Very little else is known; even the images we have are mostly renders and concepts. It is planned to debut in 2020.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
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If they can't even compete with each other, they're not going to compete with internal combustion.
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In the world we want (not the world we have, obviously), a person should be contemplating buying a new car, looking at the various products on offer, and thinking, "Hmm, do I want to stick with a familiar IC car, even though it costs a lot in gas and repairs and is probably going away eventually; or do I want to try out this new BE car, with cool tech, incredible safety, and exceptional post-sale value?" Once they get there, sure, they should look around at the Teslas and Polestars and whatnot and choose between them.
What we want to get away from is the idea that a BEV is a niche choice that only a few people will even consider, and thus each brand is trying to compete for a share of that very small market. For example, Ford should be marketing its BEVs to Ford customers who own gas cars, not to people already shopping for Teslas or Rivians or whatever. It's perhaps a poor example in that Ford does seem to be doing that, but the media coverage of Ford is comparing the Mach E to Tesla cars, not to Ford's own gas cars. This is the problem.
Alternative fuel vehicles, especially battery-electric (hydrogen is probably not going anywhere any time soon), are not fighting for a 2-5 percent share of a larger market; they are fighting for 100% share. That is the purpose of creating them in the first place (well, aside from the fact that they're better than gas cars in almost every way).
Edited by Fighteer on Apr 20th 2020 at 2:41:32 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
Well, I guess EV news is up to me. Y'all had your chance. Anyway, this article from InsideEVs reports the claim by a former Tesla engineer that the Lucid Air will be superior to the Tesla Model S. Since he worked on the S, it is indisputable that he has the inside knowledge to make such a claim, although not necessarily current knowledge. (It's also a little weird that the claim to be better than an 8-year-old car is considered novel, but okay.)
I find InsideEVs' current tack of putting out headlines that are critical of Tesla without quite falling into FUD to be off-putting, but as long as they are reporting actual news, I'll keep using them as a source. Here's their landing page for the Air, with links to additional articles.
The Lucid Air is a high-end sports car that promises 1800 hp from 3 motors, with a 900 V battery configuration and 400 miles of total range. It is also supposed to have better aerodynamic stability thanks to higher rigidity, with all of these factors going into a top speed of 200 mph. I went looking around for additional info and found this Car and Driver article, which gives a starting price of $60,000 and production beginning in Q4 2020. That price seems impossible given those specs, but they may be for a higher-end version. I can't seem to find any info about how it'll spec out — even the Lucid website simply offers a deposit with no details, merely the promise that one can configure one's car closer to production.
Anyway, it looks very impressive, and if it can beat the Model S in price for the specs, it'll be sure to sell quite a lot of units. Lucid seems to be seeking a spot in the same market as the Porsche Taycan (and Tesla's own upcoming Model S Plaid edition). However, it sort of goes to prove the idea that BEVs are a luxury product, not a general consumer product. Here's hoping that if the Air is successful, it'll lead Lucid down the path of offering more affordable vehicles in the future.
Edit: I wasn't going to mention it, but the article also makes a point to call out Tesla fans for dunking on other EV manufacturers, and this stirred up quite the tempest on Twitter, with a lot of claims (example) that InsideEVs has become clickbait with no journalistic integrity. There seems to be a counterculture developing online that finds it trendy to emphasize Tesla's shortcomings and the toxicity of some of its fans, without being explicitly connected to the FUD community. "We aren't those rabid haters, but..." I won't dispute that some fans have gotten pretty nasty (I've been known to sling an insult or two myself), but it's less about mindless allegiance to Tesla and more a defensive reaction to the enormous amount of hostility that exists out there to this day.
I also think it's become a trend that if you can't beat a company's technology, you attack it from other directions. One EV channel that I used to follow was "E for Electric", which put out quite a bit of good content despite its blatant conflict of interest: it's sponsored (seemingly exclusively) by Byton, a China-based EV startup. Now, whether there is an explicit motive there or not, I find it very hard to believe that it's a coincidence that it started getting more critical of Tesla as Byton got closer to launching its vehicle — which still isn't available yet, I should point out.
As much as I've come to adore the Tesla community and its products, and want my next car to be a Tesla, I'm not blindly loyal. If someone else comes out with a vehicle that's as good (or better) at a comparable price, I will most definitely consider it. It's very easy to claim you're doing that, though, and so far those claims have not panned out.
Edited by Fighteer on Apr 21st 2020 at 12:44:56 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
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Update on that InsideEVs kerfluffle: one of their content contributors defended the article on Twitter saying that "clickbait headlines are a must" for independent journalists to remain afloat in the current environment. I don't know how to feel about that.
The official website just shaved a tenth of a second off the published 0-60 times for the Performance versions of the Model S and Model X, at 2.3 and 2.6 sec, respectively. This seems to coincide with a forthcoming software update with a feature called "Cheetah Stance", which tacks onto the existing Launch Mode and makes use of the vehicles' air suspension.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
From Electrek: Daimler ends hydrogen car development because it's too costly
The information in the report confirms what everyone who's seriously studied the subject has been saying for a long time: hydrogen is just not cost-effective compared to battery-electric. At no point was Mercedes-Benz ever able to develop a vehicle that it could sell for more than the cost to make it.
Further, hydrogen delivery infrastructure throws away all the benefits of battery-electric cars and ends up no more energy-efficient in well-to-wheel calculations than gasoline: 25-35% compared to 70-90%. Reduced fuel costs are one of the draws of alternative vehicles and a fuel cell car loses that advantage.
There remains a Daimler-Volvo partnership to launch a hydrogen fuel-cell truck sometime this decade, although they need a lot more investment. The idea here is that the high weight of batteries needed to power a truck could make fuel cell technology more competitive. You'd also need fewer filling stations.
Edited by Fighteer on Apr 22nd 2020 at 6:00:42 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
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Ars Technica: The Polestar 2 will start at $59,900, deliveries start this summer
The Polestar 2 "Launch Edition" 4-door sedan has already started production and will begin sales in late summer. As noted in the headline, the starting price will be $59.9K in the U.S. before incentives. Specs are 402 hp from 300 kW, AWD, 275 mi range on a 78 kWh battery, 0-60 of 4.7 sec, and Android-powered OS.
Oh, lord, is this going to turn into an iOS vs. Android thing but with cars? That'll be hilarious. I can't wait to hear the stories of jailbroken Polestars.
Anyway, you can configure your car at Polestar's website.
In case anyone didn't know, Polestar is a Volvo spinoff. This launch edition may be $60K and up, but apparently Polestar plans to offer a stripped-down version later for under $40K.
Is anyone interested in getting this, or looking at it? 60K is a bit rich for my blood but the cheaper model might be worth checking out.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
The news keeps rolling in. Courtesy of InsideEVs and motor1.com, we just learned the details of Ford's electric Mustang Cobra Jet dragster prototype.
Ford got a lot of flak for making its first consumer BEV offering a CUV with the Mustang brand. Well, this is a freaking Mustang, with 1400 hp, targeted at an 8 sec quarter mile at 170 mph. That's fast, yo. Too bad you won't be able to buy one.
Weirdly, it's using the same transmission as a regular Cobra Jet, basically substituting an electric motor for the gas one. That doesn't make any sense from a general production standpoint, but maybe the gearing helps it achieve that higher max speed.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Who Am I?
I'm holding out for a cybertruck. For that kind of money, I want something exciting.
"We learn from history that we do not learn from history."
Lost in Space
The Polestar has no fart mode. For that alone, it gets marked down a grade.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
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What confuses me more than anything is using a different marque.
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It's actually quite common for major automakers to spin off brands for different kinds of cars. Toyota Motor Corporation owns the brands Toyota, Hino, Lexus, Ranz, and Daihatsu. Volkswagen Group owns Volkswagen Passenger Cars, Audi, SEAT, SKODA, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche, Ducati, Volkswagen Commercial Vehicles, Scania, and MAN. (Wikipedia)
If you want to put out a new piece of technology, or a new concept, you might find it advantageous to dissociate it from a known brand. That way you take advantage of curiosity from consumers who might be brand-averse or attracted to a "new" automaker, and you can drop it like a hot potato if it fails, without harming your existing brands.
Edited by Fighteer on Apr 23rd 2020 at 9:41:36 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
That's valid. Level 2 chargers are good if you can leave the vehicles for several hours, but you need Level 3 (DC fast-charging) to maximize daily usage. That'd be the case no matter what kind of EV you go with.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"