A thread to discuss electric vehicles and hybrid technology. No politics, please.
Technology, commercial aspects and marketing are all on-topic.
- Companies (e.g. Tesla Inc.) are only on-topic when discussing their electric vehicle products and research, not their wider activities. The exception is when those wider activities directly impact (or are impacted by) their other business areas - e.g. if electric vehicle development is cut back due to losses in another part of the business.
- Technology that's not directly related to electric vehicles (e.g. general battery research) is off-topic unless you're discussing how it might be used for vehicles.
- If we're talking about individuals here, that should only be because they've said or done something directly relevant to the topic. Specifically, posts about Tesla do not automatically need to mention Elon Musk. And Musk's views, politics and personal life are firmly off-topic unless you can somehow show that they're relevant to electric cars.
Also, posting this late, so sorry for any misspellings I might have left in there.
(Mod edited to replace original post)
Edited by Mrph1 on Mar 29th 2024 at 4:14:39 PM
Figure of Hourai
That just gets into gambling odds: if you need it serviced, it's going to cost more and nobody likes a sudden unexpected bill. Cheaper over the vehicle's entire usable lifetime doesn't help much if you're the unlucky soul who has multiple component failures (or if the repair costs are covered and then part failure down the line isn't...)
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Lifetime basic service costs may be cheaper, but individual service costs in the case of accidents will be much higher.
They should have sent a poet.
Lost in Space
Tesla's response to that would be that it's making components to be as reliable as possible so as to minimize the need for repairs at all. You can think of customer experiences, but you also have to think in aggregates. You can't not do that as a major enterprise. Not just how much individual repairs cost, but the total average cost of repairs over the vehicle's lifetime.
Again, I don't count accidents because the repair cost, sans deductible, would be covered by insurance.
Edited by Fighteer on Jan 30th 2020 at 7:31:59 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
This isn’t a Tesla thing, it’s EVs in general. And you can’t just say accidents or one-offs aren’t an issue, because they do happen and they aren’t always covered for one reason or another. If a minor accident can total the car or leave you with a huge bill for a major part replacement that’s an issue.
Perhaps either more robust critical parts or more modularity within components?
Edited by archonspeaks on Jan 30th 2020 at 4:42:46 AM
They should have sent a poet.
Figure of Hourai
Enterprises can look at the overall rate etc. And people can sort of look at it and go "well, I'm not likely to have a major failure. But once you have a lot of EVs you'll equally have a lot of part failures and servicing needed over time and whichever unlucky owner needs to pay the cost is going to be unhappy. Some things just are and you can't really look at the bright side.
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Lost in Space
I feel like the answer here is simpler than the question: it's mostly economies of scale. Right now there aren't that many shops and mechanics trained to service EVs, and parts supply is limited because it's mostly going into building the cars. These problems will solve themselves over time.
In theory, legacy automakers should have a huge advantage here, since they already have networks of shops, parts suppliers, etc., and can roll out training at a much larger scale than startups. Tesla at least has an excuse. What's Chevy's?
Edited by Fighteer on Jan 31st 2020 at 7:41:57 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Figure of Hourai
"Not everyone who knows how to service one of our vehicles is directly working for us, also with total EV sales at ~100,000 it would be economically unfeasible for us to train everyone we can get our hands on". Plus that's an economy of scale that only eliminates opportunity cost or rarity from the human dimension.
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They sound like Volkswagons, which are also over-engineered, very reliable, and extremely expensive to repair.
I think there’s a global conspiracy to see who can get the most clicks on the worst lies
Lost in Space
Okay, so let's talk Super Bowl commercials. There were three for EVs: the Porsche Taycan, the GM Hummer EV, and the Audi e-Tron.
- Porsche Taycan
: This is the best of the lot by far in my opinion. Funny, exciting, and shows off the contrast between all the gas cars revving their engines and the whisper quiet Taycan. If I knew nothing about the EV marketplace, I'd be really interested. Then I'd find out it's $150K min and lose interest very quickly.
- GMC Hummer EV: This isn't a reveal but a teaser, so there's not that much to say. The specs are impressive and if I were a Hummer aficionado (which I'm not), the revival of the line as an EV might get me intrigued enough to check out some information about them. Still nothing solid until May 20, especially for the two big numbers: range and price.
- Audi e-Tron: As I'd heard about previously, the ad is a little weird. Singing "Let it Go" in your car, a horrible traffic jam with exhaust fumes everywhere, and a glancing mention that it's an EV. Okay, sure. Tell me something about the car, maybe? Nope. Oh, well.
Meanwhile, TSLA keeps hitting new highs: 760.87 as of 2/3 17:19 UTC. It never stops. It just keeps going and going and going.
I'll get caught up on other EV news later.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 3rd 2020 at 2:29:47 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Figure of Hourai
Weird adverts are kind of the province of the Super Bowl, though. I don't think anyone doing a reasonable advert is doing it right.
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Lost in Space
Clearly, but EVs suffer from a lot of misinformation and ignorance among the public, so education needs to be a priority of the big automakers if they want people to really start buying into them. That's why the Taycan ad is my favorite since it provides a solid rebuttal to the idea that EVs are ugly and boring.
News time, or at least a token effort to catch up.
This isn't a Tesla fanboy piece but an attempt to explain the meteoric rise of the company's stock. Apparently, a part of the doubt surrounding Tesla has been around the sustainability of its battery production partnerships, particularly rumors that Panasonic was getting out or running into troubles. However, Panasonic's Q4 report indicated a profit on battery production in Nevada due to volume pushing down costs, a good sign for the future. Here's another article about it.
Reports keep coming out from tests of the Porsche Taycan indicating that its real-world driving range may be substantially higher than the EPA's rating. This is good news for Porsche as the abysmal EPA rating has become the source of much ridicule.
This is just one of several articles following up on reports that a famed Tesla hacker figured out how to unlock "Dyno mode", a hidden setting in Tesla Model 3 that is intended for dynamometer testing and explicitly not for real-world driving. It disables traction control and a number of other drivetrain features, and videos have been posted of people spinning out and crashing when the mode is engaged.
In electric aircraft news, Wright Electric is developing an electric passenger aircraft intended to seat 186 passengers. It will feature a 1.5 MW motor running at 3000 V (500 A), with ground tests scheduled for 2021. This will be an interesting one to follow.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 4th 2020 at 10:13:43 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
- Teslarati: Tesla Model 3 crushes US Top 10 EV list as only car with increasing sales. The data source is KevinRooke.com.
Yes, Teslarati has a Tesla bias. However, the numbers here speak for themselves. The list in the article is ranked by 2019 sales by model. Despite the title, it includes hybrid and plug-in hybrid as well as battery-electric vehicles. The top 10, in descending order, are:
- Tesla Model 3: 158,925
- Toyota Prius Prime: 23,630
- Tesla Model X: 19,225
- Chevrolet Bolt: 16,418
- Tesla Model S: 14,100
- Nissan Leaf: 12,365
- Honda Clarity PHEV: 10,728
- Ford Fusion Energi: 7,524
- BMW 530e: 5,862
- Chrysler Pacifica Hybrid: 5,723
Of these, Tesla Model 3 is the only car to show an increase in sales year-over-year. While Tesla did sell fewer Model 3s in the US in Q3/Q4 than the corresponding period in 2018, the overall trend remains upward. It's worth noting that the decrease in U.S. sales doesn't necessarily reflect reduced demand but rather Tesla diverting a lot of its Fremont production to Europe and China to take advantage of incentives, which have completely expired in the U.S.
With Model Y production beginning in the U.S. and new factories being built in other countries, more of the Fremont output will be able to serve domestic demand in 2020 and 2021, so we should see the numbers resuming their climb.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
Here's a neat story from Tesmanian: Bank of America Offers Employees $4K Incentive Toward New EV purchases. BoA seems to be quite progressive on low-emission vehicles by the standards of most companies.
More news...
- CleanTechnica: The Nikola Motor Badger Will Have 600 Mile Range & Arrive As A Battery Electric & Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle
Specs on this thing are crazy, with a 160 kWh battery, 906 peak hp, 2.9 sec 0-60, 8000 lb towing capacity. The 600 mile range will be on blended fuel cell and battery-electric, while it will have a 300 mile range on just batteries. No word on price, of course. Putting a fuel cell system and a battery system in the same vehicle is going to cost a pretty penny.
- CleanTechnica: The 2020 Chevy Bolt — GM Changes The Game, Again
The 2020 Bolt might make me believe that GM is really serious about EV adoption. At a base price of $26,000 with a 259 mile EPA range, it's quite a compelling choice. Let's see if they sell a lot of them.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 10th 2020 at 4:12:54 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
In today's bit of hilarity, Audi e-Trons apparently remind users when they need oil changes [1]. Mmmhmm.
Running the same software as their other cars, I suppose?
They should have sent a poet.
Lost in Space
That is the working hypothesis, yes.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
- From Twitter, Tesla has apparently navigated all the environmental and ecological issues and begun clearing trees for Giga Berlin [1].
- We are also hearing some significant rumors that Tesla's next Gigafactory project will be in Texas [2]. Ironically, it still can't sell cars directly in that state due to dealer laws.
- From InsideEVs: All-Electric Porsche 718 Detailed By Motorsport Boss. The rumors have finally been confirmed, and we're going to get a BEV version of the Porsche 718, dubbed the E-718.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 14th 2020 at 2:38:11 PM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
- CleanTechnica: A Porsche Taycan Burned Down In Florida
There is a Twitter video circulating of a Porsche Taycan that exploded in a garage in Florida. There were no injuries or human deaths, but a great deal of property damage. It is unclear what caused the fire; in many of these cases it turns out to have been the fault of wiring in the garage. One wonders if the news media will report this, or if they're only interested when it's a Tesla. (There are approximately 167 gas car fires per day in the U.S.)
Anyway, if there's a problem, I would expect VW to address it quickly.
- CleanTechnica: Rumor: Tesla Close To Deal With CATL To Use Cobalt-Free Batteries For Chinese-Made Cars
Based on a Reuters report, Tesla is apparently attempting to secure a supply of 100% cobalt-free batteries for Made-in-China cars. Cobalt is expensive, toxic, and often associated with unethical sourcing, so this is a win in several respects. The new batteries would use lithium-iron-phosphate chemistry instead of nickel-cobalt-aluminum or nickel-manganese-cobalt. While they are cheaper, they are have lower energy density, meaning that battery packs would be larger and heavier.
It is unclear when these batteries might enter use; we are likely to find out more in April when the company hosts its Battery and Powertrain Investor Day.
Seems I spoke too soon. With a mere three days to go before completion of clearing at the Brandenburg site, a German court ordered work to stop pending another environmental lawsuit. The judge's logic is that the trees "cannot be uncut". Tesla has apparently been finalizing its arrangements to replant the cut trees (Teslarati). Original reporting from The Guardian and Reuters.
This is all due to the fact that it's difficult for legacy automakers to sell electric cars if their dealer networks aren't prepared, educated, and on board with the new vehicles. No matter how much a manufacturer markets these cars, if the dealers aren't ready and willing to sell them, overall success may be limited.
The Air doesn't seem to have changed much from its initial announcement. The buzz seems to be around its efficiency, which we'll learn more about closer to its launch date, currently late 2020.
- In this YouTube video, Marques Brownlee interviews Bill Gates about his commitment to environmental causes and his recent purchase of a Porsche Taycan.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 18th 2020 at 10:44:25 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Lost in Space
Following up on the Giga Berlin work stoppage, new reports are coming out about the "environmental" groups that filed the lawsuit. The linked article is from Tesmanian: The organizations that filed a lawsuit against cleaning the site for Giga Berlin are in doubt. It is based on local reporting, so I cannot find alternative sources as yet.
There are two organizations who oppose the plan to cut down portions of a pine farm in Brandenburg for construction of Tesla's Giga Berlin factory and filed a lawsuit that resulted in a temporary halt to clearing. Members of the Brandenburg Green League challenged the decision to sue, which was made by the group's management in apparent defiance of its standard process. Meanwhile, Parliamentary figures are questioning the very validity of the Association for Landscape Conservation and Species Protection in Bavaria, which appears to be an astroturf front for the oil and auto industry and has been involved in climate change denial.
Worth noting is that all this is over not a natural forest but a pine forest that was planted to harvest cardboard.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 19th 2020 at 5:37:13 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I can't find evidence about that organization being dodgy. Certainly though the centre right CDU is now demanding that the right to sue of organizations be restricted and some Greens are highlighting the plantation point raised above.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Lost in Space
I'm stating what's in the article; without additional sources it's hard to confirm. But the article points out that it's a little unusual for a group in Bavaria to be concerned with a plantation forest in Brandenburg.
It paints a very convincing narrative, doesn't it? Big Auto and Big Oil are freaking out about the EV industry in general and Tesla in particular and have shown no compunctions whatsoever about astroturfing opposition and filing obstructive lawsuits.
Edited by Fighteer on Feb 19th 2020 at 5:38:03 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
I'm sorry, but that article makes a lot of uncorroborated claims (no evidence is presented for any climate change denial links, and Google gives only ambiguous evidence) and weak circumstantial evidence (the geography of the group). To me this looks like peddling fake narratives.
"For a successful technology, reality must take precedence over public relations, for Nature cannot be fooled." - Richard Feynman
Figure of Hourai
Well, self driving cars need a fix here... can't have cars thinking the speed limit is 85mph because of some tape or someone coming along with a marker pen or something.
Lost in Space
Yes, there is definitely additional work needed, but the software is only considered level 2 right now and requires supervision. That's what a lot of people seem to forget. Also, we have a separate topic for self-driving vehicles.
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"
Fewer parts = more cost per part. That makes sense. Still, lifetime repair cost should be less than a gas car, excluding collision damage which would be covered by insurance.
Edited by Fighteer on Jan 30th 2020 at 6:59:34 AM
"It's Occam's Shuriken! If the answer is elusive, never rule out ninjas!"