DEATH BATTLE

Huh. I can't believe I never thought about this before, but what about the Sentinels from Marvel vs the Manhunters from DC?

Or if we limit it to character vs character, The Grandmaster vs Bastion?

Edited by KnownUnknown on Apr 30th 2024 at 10:15:44 AM

I immediately assumed that the Manhunters were connected in some way to Martian Manhunter, but nope! Just space-robots. That said, my only experience with Sentinels (other than Marvel VS Capcom) is this, so the Manhunters probably still take it.

You need to start watching X-Men 97 then.

Is Sakura against Gwen with the symbiote or Gwen without the symbiote?

It was with the symbiote, though it doesn't really make much difference

I think it's Gwen with a symbiote, but...

Yeah, it got overshadowed somewhat by the Sakura scaling, but the scaling for Gwen was also pretty wack. Like, you really shouldn't be comparing Gwen's symbiote to Knull, the God-King-Emperor of all Symbiotes, even if it's just a casual speed feat. I mean, it's a speed feat regarding dragons flying between planets. That's- unless Gwen has been flying between planets on the down low, that's clearly not a remotely accurate comparison. That's like scaling the weakest Asgardian directly to Odin.

Edited by Elmo3000 on Apr 30th 2024 at 7:19:34 PM

That's... not why Team Gwen gave the speed scaling to the symbiote dragons...?

The reason why was cuz Gwen fought them and kept up with them in a fight. I don't even agree with the travel speed being scaleable but, can you not make up reasons for scaling chains that an entire Before The Verdict thing was writren about?

Oh, so it's like a Cloud VS Bahamut situation, that's... I mean, I don't want to say it's valid, because "I fought a dragon who can fly between planets so I must be fast enough to move at/react to those speeds too!" is definitely the least-convincing part of the Link VS Cloud 2 verdict, but it at least makes more sense than just scaling because they're both symbiotes. Although even so, Knull and his symbiote posse are extremely out of Gwen's league.

Hey speaking of weird cosmic Marvel stuff, remember Ego VS Mogo? The two planets? That fight would be interesting, but how would it work? Would they just, like, slowly headbutt each other, like a really slow-motion version of the final Hulk VS Broly clash?

...Did you criticize the blog without even reading it?

Like, genuine question, did you criticize that part without even resding the blog itself? If you're gonna say something is dumb, at least read WHY people think what they do.

I don't even agree with the feat since unlike with the Bahamut situstion, we don't have any evidence of seeing the dragons react while flying that I think is that good, soooo it's a no-go, but like, Team Gwen did an explanation of why they buy it.

She really hasn't.

From the Sakura vs Gwen blog itself.

The first link provided in the bolded text takes you to a broken imgur link.

The second link shows a clip of Sakura in a post-epilogue uppercutting Zangief in a ring. This is not depicted as her defeating him, or her being on the same level.

The third link shows Sakura hitting Zangief with a Hadouken and nothing else. The smoke disappears and he's just standing there.

Having read that comic and the scan they used, Sakura put Zangief in a headlock while R Mika initiated it. It seems really flimsy to use that as a feat.

Scaling Sakura to pulls submarines out of the sea and jumping into space because she put the guy who did it in a tandem headlock during a public sporting event and survived a kick from him is what I would consider problematic.

Edited by FOFD on Apr 30th 2024 at 3:50:27 PM

Of all the things to question this one is the most unambiguous in showing that Sakura is on par with Zangief

“What proof do you have that Sakura can match Zangief, excluding the time we specifically saw her matching Zangief in a fight.”

I get not being a fan of the scaling, but that’s still a very funny way of trying to deny it.

If you want to call it an outlier, go ahead. Regardless, given the same amount of leeway, Street fighter almost always comes out on top against comic Street tiers. Sakura has legit better direct feats than Gwen does.

Did Sakura defeat Zangief by uppercutting him?

Oh, they should be out of Gwen's league, but the tie-ins are all over the place. Venom nearly died fighting one in the "Rex" arc, but then over in the X-Men comics you have Lockheed one-shotting them despite them being nigh-immune to fire, and Miles Morales revealing them to be dragons bonded to symbiotes when that's not the case in any other book... yeah, the tie-ins with Donny Cates' comics are all over the case in terms of quality.

Edited by Arawn999 on Apr 30th 2024 at 2:03:55 AM

I mean, if you're uppercutting hard enough to launch that meat mountain of a man into the air then... like, I don't know if the exact outcome of the fight is the part that matters here.

Doesn't that just means she's strong enough to knock a 399 lbs (Zangief's canon weight in V) man into the air? I mean... don't get me wrong, it's impressive that a teenage-to-twentysomething woman of a rather slender build can do that... but (according to the handbooks) Gwen can lift ~10 tons.

Adding to the "Gwen's symbiote doesn't scale to the dragons" pile, normal symbiotes in the 616 universe doesn't scale to the Grendel symbiote dragons. Grendels are explicitly extra beefy super symbiotes powered up by Knull's hivemind.

On top of that, there's been several points showing that Gwen's artificial symbiote works differently than the 616 klyntar, moments like how Knull couldn't command it or how the Inheritors were left confused as to why they couldn't drain Gwen when they had no trouble doing it to other symbiote using Spiders.

It's one of those technicalities that might not come up, but could still swing factors in a more unusual match up.

And Haggar's shown dying in various... mundane... ways in the Final Fight game over scenes, like being chained up and drowned or crushed under a spiked ceiling, which doesn't exactly make sense if he can pile drive someone through the planet and out into space.

I don't think that uppercutting someone once in a fight is sufficient proof to claim that you scale to everything that they can do, but that's not the issue. Sakura scaling to Zangief isn't a problem; it's both of them allegedly scaling to a character who can perform a feat which is, demonstrably, at minimum, 1,000,000,000 times stronger than anything that anyone else in the entire Street Fighter franchise has ever accomplished. Like, not even just one billion times stronger than Sakura and Zangief; one billion times stronger than the previously-established strongest feat to have ever been performed, by any other Street Fighter character. This is the kind of thing that the word 'outlier' was invented for.

Decent power-scaling: Sakura has only ever been shown lifting five ton weights. However, she frequently spars with Ken, who is capable of lifting fifty ton weights. We can reasonable assume that she is at least in a similar ballpark to this, or that if she can't lift fifty ton weights herself, she can at least still hold her own against people who can.

This power-scaling: Sakura's greatest on-screen physical feats include breaking down a door and splitting a tree. However, by scaling via Zangief to Haggar, we can conclude that she is capable of casually bench-pressing the entire continent of Africa.

"Sakura has legit better direct feats than Gwen does." Then use them!!! Use those instead of saying that Sakura scales to ten million times stronger than Spider-Man. That way, all of the amazing research and writing you guys do won't get overshadowed by all of the comments saying "Wait, what the hell was that about Sakura being ten million times stronger than Spider-Man?" If Sakura would've won with better direct feats, and instead you chose to scale her to a feat quadrillions of times stronger than she has directly shown, then... honestly, you kind of sabotaged your own blog.

Like, I'm not saying that to be a jerk, I'm just saying that... when you were writing 'multi-continental' and scaling Sakura to feats quadrillions of times above her own... did you stop to wonder how it would go over? Probably not well? I'm not trying to force my view of power-scaling onto you, I'm just pointing out that if your view of power-scaling was different, you would currently be basking in the satisfaction of a blog well done, and not having a bunch of people on Reddit reacting 'wtf is this?'

I mean, the response from the people well versed in powerscaling has been pretty unanimously positive about the research. Just because some people who aren’t don’t like the results doesn’t make it wrong or bad.

Elmo I’ve seen in in three different websites including the G1 blog itself complaining about power scaling and saying that in order for the blogs to be good again they should stop doing it.

The next time, by the way, is Charlie Morningstar vs. Marceline. Honestly, a pretty great matchup.

When you say 'well-versed in power-scaling' then that just makes it sound like anyone who disagrees with the outcome clearly just isn't as well-versed on the topic of power-scaling as the people who agree with you. If they were only more well-versed then they would clearly understand that scaling Character A to Character B even though Character B is demonstrably 1,000,000,000,000,000 times stronger than them is actually very sensible and reasonable.

Also, like, no shit, people who agree with power-scaling are less likely to disagree with the power-scaling.

Edited by Elmo3000 on Apr 30th 2024 at 10:34:07 AM

Okay, not sure your point. Turns outs the power scaling blog made by powerscalers, for the power scaling comunity, uses the standards of the power scaling community. If you don’t like it, that’s fine, the blog just wasn’t really made for you then. And it’s just a blog, you can disagree and move along with your day.

The power-scaling community is not the same as the Death Battle community. There's a significant overlap, sure, but there's also a lot of people who roll their eyes whenever power-scaling comes up, because it's been shown on several hundred thousand occasions to be unreliable, inconsistent and often contradictory. It turns off a lot of casual viewers, because even they can recognize that in comics and video games, situations like "A beats B, B beats C, C beats A," can occur, and this is fundamentally incompatable with power-scaling. And it sucks if you're a fan of Death Battle and a fan of VS Debates but not power-scaling, and you find a cool-looking video or blog that had a load of effort put into it, and then it turns out that the entire outcome was predicated on "We believe that Sakura from Street Fighter is 1,000,000,000,000,000 times stronger than the strongest feat that she's ever actually done."

And it’s fine to disagree, just don’t, for example, go to the blogs comment section and insult the people who made it. Then it goes from respectful disagreement to just being rude.