The General US Politics Thread

You're asking me to provide physical evidence of what people's opinions will be once they've had time to digest the versions of the story that media outlets will be churning out today.

What exactly are you expecting me to show you? Next week's polling averages?

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Sure that's a possible, personally I really don't think so. The speech was a very strong sign of resolve for our support of the Dreamers, and passing the spending bill was necessary to prevent government shutdown (something the general public and all sensible people want to avoid).

Could those two things clash? Sure but I'm not convinced they will, it's more than possible that the narrative will go that the Democrats rightfully fought for the Dreamers but had to help pass a budget to prevent greater harm.

Oh I'm sorry I thought you were basing your position that it's an unmitigated failure and disaster on actual evidence, I guess we'll have to wait for that.

edited 9th Feb '18 8:32:06 AM by Fourthspartan56

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

While I get the point you're trying to make Tobias, it gets kind of grating when you, for lack of a better word, tend to deliver sermons to us all about how everything is doomed because only optics matter and on and on.

Optics do matter, and people can believe stupid things and not thinking critically, but you can't determine as astutely as you seem to think.

Also, this election cycle is just getting started. The Republicans' policy priorities on entitlements and healthcare are still toxic, but their own base wants them, so they to are at an awkward point of where to move next.

Plus, the Trump scandals are not going to stop.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

TBH, I'm still rather impressed that the Democratic Party has gotten as much done as it has given that it is the minority party.

Disgusted, but not surprised

I'm thinking that Rand Paul may be a help with the optics of this by the way, he actually forced a one hour technical shutdown, his massive opposition makes what passes seem much better for the Democrats and if his opposition is the lead story for a bit it may dump some blame on the Republicans. After all they got their DACA win and one of them then tried to shut down the government anyway.

“And the Bunny nails it!” ~ Gabrael “If the UN can get through a day without everyone strangling everyone else so can we.” ~ Cyran

That's possible, though Paul has always been viewed as a wildcard/unorthodox Republican by the general public.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

Rand Paul and Paul Ryan are the definition of Critic-Proof. They’re both just...weird.

You mean Ron Paul right? Paul Ryan is a lot of things but I wouldn't call him weird.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

Smarmy as hell, for example.

Optics are what decide elections, and elections are how we get Democrats into positions of power so that they can affect real change. People vote based on what they, personally, believe, and those beliefs are shaped by the information they're exposed to. That's what makes the narrative flow of politics so important.

Republicans understand this. it's literally the only reason they're even able to claim power given how toxic their agenda is: because they control the flow of information, shaping the opinions of people around the country through outlets such as Fox News, the single most-watched news network in the country.

Republicans have so thoroughly taken control of the public narrative that their blatant, unapologetic propaganda networks are considered mainstream news. Despite jokes about the "Clinton News Network" and various whinings about "liberal media", there is no Democratic equivalent. We don't have a propaganda network that constantly shills our agenda and everyone just accepts it as a reliable and trustworthy source.

That's not a criticism, mind. The kind of propagandist control that Fox News represents is undemocratic. The more a governing body directly influences the news media, the closer a country gets to authoritarianism. We shouldn't have a Liberal Fox News.

But it does mean that we need to be cognizant of how our actions help shape the narrative, especially because our adversaries have such a devoted propaganda network running 24/7 to smear us for sneezing too hard. If we can't deliver the world, we shouldn't promise the world. We shouldn't pick fights we have no intention of winning.

We need to keep the pressure on the Republicans' mishandling of government and not allow the story to turn against "greedy, corrupt Establishment Democrats who only pretend to care for sympathy votes while lining their pockets", an accusation that's become so prevalent in the public narrative that even a sect of Democrats never miss an opportunity to rant about it.

Despite what people have been saying since Trump got elected, there is no guarantee of a Blue Wave. And even if it comes, there's no guarantee it won't be full of Herbal Tea radicals who rode to success on a wave of disdain for competent politicians. We need to be aware of how we're presenting ourselves to the public.

edited 9th Feb '18 9:13:04 AM by TobiasDrake

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Ok this is an outright strawman, no-one here has said a blue wave is guaranteed. Quote the opposite many of us have been clear that it's not guaranteed when talking about it (and if we hadn't other posters would've surely called us out on it).

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

I agree, but considering how the special elections have been going (decidedly moderate/mainstream progressives winning or at least closing the margins in places that Democrats more or less wrote off), we shoudn't give in to panic.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

I'm not panicking. I don't know why people think I'm panicking. I'm just saying that in the public eye, we lost the shutdown. We drew a line in the sand, the Republicans crossed it, and we folded. That's the narrative.

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I think the point being made is you have no real reason to say that's how the public feels yet. It might be, and we'll find out soon enough, but you're being much more declarative about this than you actually have a reason to be.

And that jumping the gun happens a lot with you.

edited 9th Feb '18 9:19:17 AM by LSBK

This is exactly my position, it's certainly a possibility but I take issue with the certainty. We just don't know yet and it's irrational to assume one or another.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

I mean, this is literally the second time this has happened in as many months. The last time there was a shutdown, people were talking about losing faith in the Democrats for abandoning the Dreamers. The narrative then was that the Dems gave up on the Dreamers and passed the budget in exchange or an empty promise from the notoriously unreliable Mitch McConnell, selling out DACA on faerie wishes and unicorn dreams.

That was, like, two weeks ago. We had people in this very thread complaining about it. Does nobody else remember that?

edited 9th Feb '18 9:22:52 AM by TobiasDrake

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You yourself pointed out that the polling averages haven't come out yet. Why not wait until they do?

edited 9th Feb '18 9:22:36 AM by M84

Disgusted, but not surprised

Are people even blaming the democrats for losing this battle? I haven’t seen any waves of it like the last shutdown.

TBF, it just happened. It will take a bit of time before we know either way.

Disgusted, but not surprised

I suspect that we won't know until next week, when/if Mitch allows a DACA vote. Once that ends (probably in failure), we'll see the true fallout.

Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects.

That's my take on it. Right now I'm cautiously optimistic, since it looks like McConnell is actually going to allow debate on DACA. That was the biggest stumbling block — DACA has bipartisan support among voters, so there's a good chance that there will be some GOP votes for it. Even Paul Ryan has made noise about addressing the issue (though he hasn't made and promises).

If it gets debated in the Senate and then fails on party lines, or passes the Senate but stalls in the House, then that solidly puts the blame back on the GOP. It only looks bad for the Democrats if they get nothing done on it (or somehow shoot themselves in the foot, but I don't think that's likely).

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For the record, on my side of the political discourse, a lot of people are acting exactly as tobias described. Maybe it won't be the utter majority but everyone in my social circle (as big or small or niche as that may be) is extremely and utterly disappointed

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Certainly some people will be disappointed by the Democrats responsible decision, hopefully they are just a vocal minority.

"Sandwiches are probably easier to fix than the actual problems" -Hylarn

With how partisan things have gotten I think a lot of people have forgotten that politics isn't generally about getting everything you want. Yes, even what you want is actually for good things instead of...whatever it is that Republican want.

Like I said before, if the Dreamers get left out to wash that's sad and is a loss...but not a total one because Democrats are still getting things out of it that are good for the country in general. And, yeah, I get that a lot of people don't think in those terms, but hopefully enough do.