The General US Politics Thread

My point there is the fact that people here DO like to clump them all together.

And I'm not arguing that the vast majority of the current elected Republican party are the pieces of shit, but as you literally said, they're set up up to ignore the very people who voted them in in the first place. So demonizing all republican VOTERS into being evil transphobic racist bigots is a problem for me. acting like there's no possibly middle ground and that we couldn't talk to such people and educate them, or make them see our point of view is patently false. Because I've literally been doing so consistently over the past several years with people who identify as Republicans.

And frankly, I also don't actually define most elected Republicans as Republicans anymore either. They're Trumplicans. The guys who won't bend the knee to Trump are the actual Republicans, and there aren't many of them left.

Edited by Pendrake on Dec 8th 2021 at 4:05:34 AM

Speaking of which: Biden-Putin talks: President Biden rules out unilaterally sending US troops to Ukraine, but also refuses Putin's demand that Ukraine be denied NATO membership.

So nothing was agreed upon, but it seems both sides are ready to hold further talks to deescalate. Biden wants to have a conference between Russia and the leading NATO members and thinks that will be announced by Friday.

Biden will be in talks with the Ukrainian president tomorrow.

So, all on all, not bad news.

Right wing media and demagogues are split between calling Biden weak on Russia or outright taking Putin's side.

They're not used to the President being well,the President and being cordial

"Biden is Weak on Russia"?

Did they forget Putin has Trump's tiny balls in a vice when they met?

Funny thing is part of that "Weak on Russia" thing is the fact that Putin actually said he respects Biden at one point. Don't think he ever said that about Trump... But, you know, in fairness, it's Trump. XD

Edited by Pendrake on Dec 8th 2021 at 4:07:59 AM

"Right wing media", remember.

Edited by PhysicalStamina on Dec 8th 2021 at 7:07:36 AM

They didn't forget they just didn't care since he was a Republican

Putin probably means it, too. You gotta respect someone who tells you what you are to your face rather than being sycophantic, right?

I don't think Biden is "weak on Russia" in the sense that conservative media probably means it, but I do feel he could take a stronger stance on Ukraine than he is doing now. Maybe send a platoon of soldiers to Ukraine that would be conveniently in the way of any invasion plans. That would send a much stronger message than talks of sanctions.

Not that I favour a military approach in general, but I worry that Putin is just going to walk all over the West when we don't in this case. It's not like sanctions stopped Putin the last time he wanted a piece of Ukraine.

From what I heard sanctions did hurt their economy, and their annexation did see them booted from the G8.

Sure, but the land was annexed nonetheless, and it remains so. Clearly those sanctions were a price Putin was willing to pay for the land, so who is to say the same thing won't happen again? Putin annexes Ukraine, rides out the sanctions, and keeps the land anyway.

Okay, no offense, but this is just asinine. The vast majority of the party don't represent the party? What they were in the past — and that really wasn't that great either — doesn't change what they are now.

Edited by Perseus on Dec 9th 2021 at 12:32:23 AM

I think what he means is that a small part has radicalized beyond what they were before and is now dominating the party and backing Trump.

It's important to remember that a lot of people vote for their party, right or wrong, no matter where it goes. Partisanship is very entrenched in the US, and voters don't switch easily, if at all.

And I will hold those people just as responsible for their party's wrongs as the true believers. Because they are.

x4 The sanctions came in after they took Crimeia so not so certain what your point is. You could argue sanctions kept Russia from more overtly supporting Ukraine rebels. That he wanted Biden to commit to barring them from joining NATO would indicate he's concerned about blowback from doing anything more.

Edited by Shaoken on Dec 9th 2021 at 12:37:36 AM

While it might be worth acknowledging the differences and nuances in belief between different republican voters and politicians for the sake of intellectual honesty and dialogue (however rare or difficult it might be), the fact is that in a practical sense they are still voting for and representing an agenda that is pretty indefensible if you care about issues like civil rights, responsible governance, good international relations and basic human decency. A single issue or party loyalty voter isn't exactly someone I'm super sympathetic to if their pet issue is all it takes to send everything else to that toilet, especially when that pet issue is itself something that isn't particularly defensible anyway like abortion or guns.

I think it’s also worth remembering that this forum is significantly to the left of most of the US. A lot of things we consider objectively good common-sense policy do not have wide support with the general population, or even with the rest of the party. Now, obviously we’re not going to be changing minds on the far right but there’s a large body of evidence showing that with the right messaging progressive views can be made appealing to middle of the road voters. As unlikely as it seems, there are people who disagree with our positions for perfectly sensible reasons that aren’t outright racism or fascism. Hardline anti-conservative rhetoric ultimately pushes those voters into the arms of the lunatic fringe though, as we’ve seen lately with the vaccine stuff, so there’s a urgent need to get the messaging right here.

Edited by archonspeaks on Dec 8th 2021 at 6:16:10 AM

​Raleigh News & Observer: NC’s 2022 primary election delayed in court fight over maps

The issue with “all Republican voters are evil and malicious,” (especially when combined with “non-voters or third-party voters are irresponsible idiots and/or tankies”) is - where do you think you are going to get your extra voters from? They need to come from somewhere - trying to win on ground game alone risks disaster.

So trying to understand, in good faith, people who don’t already vote for the Democrats, is kind of politically necessary.

Are any of us here in this random forum thread political operatives?

Edited by Perseus on Dec 9th 2021 at 1:24:41 AM

Even if nobody here is, so what? Maybe some would like to use this thread to discuss the best ways to actually push back against Republicans and their policies or winning over centrist voters, instead of just ranting about and demonizing them.

Edited by Alycus on Dec 8th 2021 at 6:45:18 AM

I just don't think we should make excuses for the GOP like claiming that Trumpists aren't real Republicans.

I mean I don't think that was necessarily what people were arguing? People's motivations for voting republican are going to vary to a decently large degree and it goes without saying there isn't necessarily malice involved for every single one of them, that's overly simplistic. The point is moreso that you can't really expect people not to judge you negatively on at least some level for enabling something like Trump and GOP politicians in voting for them, malice or no malice.

And beyond that while there is value in having a conversation with the people in our everyday lives, I don't really blame anyone who doesn't exactly feel fit to do that. Not everyone is a good conversationalist or political speaker, or they might be a minority who feels uncomfortable being around a person who doesn't seem to care about what happens to them. It's not exactly a great feeling to have to argue for your right to *exist* and pursue your own happiness without fear of suffering a hate crime or being a victim of the police for being in the wrong place and the wrong time, not being able to live as the gender you identify as or marry the person you love, etc.

Mind you, I don't disagree about the necessity of non-agressive messaging to attract unengaged or third party voters, but that's more a job for politicians and political/social activists. The average person isn't obligated to withhold judgment from people for making bad or myopic political decisions.

Edited by Draghinazzo on Dec 8th 2021 at 12:11:58 PM

No one's stopping them if so.

Yeah, it's kind of hard not to think poorly of them if their voting pattern is screwing over you and people like you.

Edited by M84 on Dec 8th 2021 at 11:03:27 PM

Exactly. I'm going to judge, and judge harshly, anybody who votes for policies that harm people like myself and those I care about, whatever their reasons may be. I don't think that's particularly unfair of me! It's definitely not my job, nor my moral obligation, to do otherwise!

Edited by Perseus on Dec 9th 2021 at 2:08:08 AM

"Are any of us here in this random forum thread political operatives?"

Yo.

I go canvassing for votes for my House candidate. Haven't started for this cycle yet, but I'm planning to next month.