The General US Politics Thread

Not to jump straight to an extreme example, but do you really value Britain and North Korea equally as countries?

I hardly think it's controversial to say countries aren't all equal. Countries that allow freedom of expression are "better" than countries with openly repressive regimes. Countries that don't gun down journalists are "better" than ones that do. The US has many flaws, but I don't think it's correct to say it's no better than any other country.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 16th 2018 at 8:32:10 AM

... that's a really loaded question. What do you mean, "value equally"? They both have people in it. They both have value. That's like asking to rank your friends. Yes you could do it, hypothetically, but that doesn't really change that it's not something I'd want to do .

I do not feel remotely comfortable answering such a question. And no, the answer isn't "oh of course the uk, but it makes me feel better to not say". I mean flat out, I do not feel comfortable weighing in on it for either direction as a values judgment, and the fact that that's posed as an easy example wigs me out.

Edited by MrAHR on Aug 16th 2018 at 11:35:51 AM

I mean, I think there's a pretty big difference between valuing the people in countries differently, which I think is what Mr AHR is talking about being uncomfortable with, and valuing the institutions we call "states" differently, which is what archonspeaks is talking about.

And honestly, that strikes me as something that should be incredibly self-evident.

Edited by LSBK on Aug 16th 2018 at 10:37:02 AM

An easier question to answer would be "would you rather be allied with the DPRK or the UK?"

Yeah, the UK is going through a really rough patch now and there's a chance they will end up with Boris Johnson as PM in the future <shudder>...but I'd still trust them more than Kim Jong Un.

I do agree, there are many different standards to "judge" a country on. And as a result, some people are going to come away with different judgment calls. And I don't think "the us is no better than other countries" is inherently a bad take.

That was my main issue.

Edited by MrAHR on Aug 16th 2018 at 11:40:32 AM

Yeah, there's a big difference. In the context of the comments I was originally replying to, we were discussing states.

States aren't all equal, even if human lives are.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 16th 2018 at 8:37:40 AM

I'm not sure there's an objective value to people vs. people.

And countries are just groups of people.

It's also a weirdly irrelevant question unless we're planning to sacrifice a few countries at the demand of Space Gods.

Charles: yeah that's largely my stance.

Even if you do focus on state comparison, you can still get some specific angles to look at.

As an example— I'd probably want to be friends with a rich CEO over a serial killer, but you could also argue the rich CEO has led to more suffering than the serial killer, just due to power.

Edited by MrAHR on Aug 16th 2018 at 11:44:17 AM

But one also shouldn't be making false equivalences. There's a big difference between the DPRK and the USA. Saying "all countries are the same and no country is better than the other" is a statement that ignores that some countries really have done a lot more awful things than others. No country is blameless, but not every country has an equal amount of blame.

Americans of course shouldn't be patting themselves on the back for their country not being as bad as the DPRK — that's kind of a low bar to clear. Which isn't to say we're only slightly better than the DPRK.

We should probably refrain from trying to claim that a CEO causes more suffering than a Serial Killer. It's a wee bit disrespectful to the victims of serial killers.

Edited by M84 on Aug 16th 2018 at 11:48:35 PM

I really don't think it's controversial to say some countries are better than other ones. Are you honestly saying a repressive totalitarian regime is no different from a open democratic state? Really?

I feel like you're missing the point of my comparison. Suffering isn't a yes/no situation. It's not "oh the ceo has caused more harm, therefore serial killers have done NOTHING WRONG."

It's the fact that, when in power, you can hurt more people by default. A teacher usually has a chance to traumatize more students than a parent, but a parent can usually traumatize a specific person more.

When we look at those situations, different people will decide which one they personally find worse.

Which was really my main initial point.

I agree, we shouldn't generalize, and we should also not pat ourselves on the back.

All I was trying to say is that it's not infeasible to draw conclusions, and not necessarily rank the US as particularly better, without it being a gross over generalization. I do not intend to say "US just as bad as NK" and never did. The statement was initially a general comparison to all nations, and there are a lot of nations and a lot of diversity.

Never did. And don't intend to. I am saying that the US has done some bad things and thus looking at it critically compared to the generic average of most nations isn't the same as calling the US just as bad as [insert bad thing here].

Edited by MrAHR on Aug 16th 2018 at 11:53:03 AM

Except one has to take intent into consideration as well. A person in a position of power and authority may indeed cause a lot of suffering without even meaning to do it. Comes Great Responsibility and all that. But someone like a Serial Killer is deliberately using their power to hurt and kill other people.

Honestly, it might have been better to just avoid comparing a CEO to a Serial Killer.

Yes, some people value intent! others value the overall impact more! People have different values to what they think is worse over all.

Some might even play the numbers game. AKA what the chances of me encountering This bad thing, vs. This bad thing.

People weigh things differently.

Edited by MrAHR on Aug 16th 2018 at 11:57:50 AM

I mean, did you see the John Oliver video on that one coal baron? Some CE Os are heartless leeches who don’t care about anything but their own self-interest, their workers and the environment be damned.

Except the original assertion was that the US was no better than any other country, and the reality is the US is quite a lot better than many countries. Yes, it can be vague and difficult to draw conclusions as to what "better" is, but whether you mean to or not you're implying that a totalitarian state is just fine, the same as a democratic state.

Edited by archonspeaks on Aug 16th 2018 at 8:59:09 AM

And when one says things like "I don't think the US is any better than any other country" it's not unfair if someone else interprets that to mean that, yes, the first person is indeed making an equivalence with states like the DPRK.

That is a situation where intent is in play.

Edited by M84 on Aug 17th 2018 at 12:01:44 AM

Also that. I used CEO's largely for that reason because hooboy the intentional corruption some of the 1% can reach is wild.

You can, it's a bit weird when that is one nation out of hundreds. If you want to contest that point fine, but I really don't think that saying that automatically invokes Comparison to North Korea.

Edited by MrAHR on Aug 16th 2018 at 12:00:53 PM

Perhaps it would be better to compare the CEO to a mugger.

"Any" other country includes that one country too. Among others. Maybe it's best just to say "The USA isn't the greatest nation."

Edited by M84 on Aug 17th 2018 at 12:01:13 AM

Sure if you want. Serious question, do you have some specific grind against serial killers? You seem awfully stuck on this point. I'm fine with changing the metaphor, really.

You could, but I also, personally, would not say the US is that much better from most countries, in terms of the things the US holds valuable.

Edited by MrAHR on Aug 16th 2018 at 12:03:20 PM

A specific grind? Aside from the fact that they prey on and murder people?

Anyway, while it's perfectly reasonable to criticize the USA and argue that it's not the greatest nation on Earth, it's also important to acknowledge it's positive aspects and avoid making false equivalences. Every nation has its' upsides and downsides, and some have a lot more of the latter than others.

Edited by M84 on Aug 17th 2018 at 12:07:37 AM

Yes? The business practices of a lot of companies leads to a lot of deaths through long term poverty, as well as terrible working conditions in outsourced areas. That's why I picked the two initially. Two different versions of causing deaths. One is one we find more viscerally horrifying, the other one racks up a higher body count over time.

(another example would be a corrupt judge/lawyer who always gives the death sentence, no matter if the person is innocent or not)

Edited by MrAHR on Aug 16th 2018 at 12:10:34 PM

I'm not sure that makes much sense. In terms of things the US holds valuable, like military and political power, it's definitely right up there at the top. In terms of things that might actually be valuable like universal suffrage or respect for human rights it's far from the best but it's definitely above average.

I was mostly thinking about its social mobility value and things like opportunity and education and what else have you, but I'll definitely agree it's got as large of a military as it says it does.

Going back to that "friends" metaphor...you absolutely can rank your friends if some of them are way shittier than others. You're probably going to find the "friend" who does nothing but crash on your couch and eat your food and leave drugs everywhere a bit less of a friend than the ones who don't do any of that. At which point you might be wondering why you are still friends with this person.

You can, but also it's not something that everything is equal valued, was my thing. And it can't be objectively ranked because everyone has different things they want out of friendship. Something someone values highly in friendship, I might not care about at all.

I understand the value in acknowledging the good a country does, but that doesn't need to be stated with a criticism every time.

Edited by MrAHR on Aug 16th 2018 at 12:15:15 PM